Ep 12: Inclusive Marketing from a Content Creators Perspective with Joy Ofodu
Shownotes
In this episode, Joyann and Joy Ofodu discuss a range of topics from pleasing the algorithm and making your content accessible to equity for Black creators and tips for getting into inclusive Marketing.
Joy Ofodu is a professional voice actor and dating content creator. She used to work at Instagram as a Marketing Manager, focusing on inclusion in scaled global campaigns.
You can watch the episode on Youtube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s45XArMWm1A&ab_channel=JoyannBoyce
Useful links:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Algorithms-Oppression-Search-Engines-Reinforce/dp/1479837245
https://joyofodu.com/2018/05/31/search-project-designed-to-divide/
https://www.nfl.com/causes/porlacultura/
https://www.dove.com/uk/stories/about-dove/ending-hair-discrimination.html
https://www.edelman.com/work/vaseline-see-my-skin
https://annenberg.usc.edu/research/aii
You can find Joy at:
https://www.datingunsettled.com/
https://www.instagram.com/joyofodu/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/joyofodu/
You can find Joyann at: https://twitter.com/joyannboyce
Transcript
[00:00:00] Joyann Boyce: Welcome to the Marketing Made Inclusive Podcast. I am your host, Joyann Boyce. On this podcast, we're gonna discuss all things inclusive marketing from persona creation campaigns, and even some of the mishaps we see in the media. Tune in and let me know your thoughts on how we can make inclusive marketing the industry standard.
[00:00:21] Welcome and welcome back to the Marketing Made Inclusive Podcast. I have an amazing guest with me who is partially my namesake as well, Joy. Oh, my days.
[00:00:32] Joy Ofodu: Hey.
[00:00:33] Joyann Boyce: I'm so glad to have you on the podcast. We met over the internet literally during lockdown, but how about you tell the listeners all about yourself and in, everything that I would know
[00:00:46] and some bits that I don't, I guess I know everything from three years, but.
[00:00:49] Joy Ofodu: I love that. Okay. Hey everyone, my name is Joy Ofodu. Uh, Joyann knows that I'm a ridiculous person. I'm a silly individual. I would say that I'm a celebrated voice actor and creative executive. I was nominated for my first voice acting award recently.
[00:01:04] Best narrator Black Girl write, Black Girls Who Write Yes. So excited about that.
[00:01:10] Joyann Boyce: Congrats.
[00:01:10] Joy Ofodu: Thank you. Thank you. But I'm a creative executive and I'm the founder of my own company, Joy Ofodu. I've drawn over 30 million views to original digital comedy content and also more views, millions unquantifiable amount of use to inclusion centred global marketing campaign
[00:01:29] at Instagram where I worked for four and a half years. So under my self-titled company, I've grown this audience of over 200,000 daters and meditators in the past two years or so. And now I'm the host of my own original audio show called Dating Unsettled. So I'm a podcast girly as well. Uh, over Dating Unsettled, we like to validate women daters and non-binary daters on all podcast platforms.
[00:01:52] So yeah, I'm. I'm a funny person. I'm a vocal person. I'm using my voice and my comedy as my primary art form right now, and I'm really energised about empowering women and underrepresented people.
[00:02:03] Joyann Boyce: Like Joy has done so much. This is what the, the majority of that has been in the past three years as well, right?
[00:02:12] Joy Ofodu: I mean, it's been a slow build, like Instagram and marketing obviously was five years. I've been on the internet since I was five years old, so you can call that over 20 years. Uh, but I would say yes, that the majority of my, like short form content career and my voice acting career has been in the last two years.
[00:02:29] Joyann Boyce: Oh my gosh.
[00:02:29] Joy Ofodu: So it's been an explosion. It's been rapid growth. I went from, you know, kind of just being me in my neighbourhood and planes and trains and buses and cars and adventuring as like a marketing executive where I was like behind the magic of Instagram.
[00:02:41] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:42] Joy Ofodu: And now I'm in a position where I'm being recognised by complete strangers at baby showers and in TSA and coming off of elevators in Mexico.
[00:02:52] And people are like, oh my. I watch your videos. We watch you all the time. I'm in like a, a speakeasy-type bar in Harlem and people are like, oh, your videos got me through the pandemic. I'm like, what are you talking like, that's crazy to me. In October, I was, uh, I was on the empire. I was inside the Empire State Building.
[00:03:11] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:11] Joy Ofodu: Visiting a company. And two people within the building. Joy? I was like, stop. So it's getting really global, getting really national spreading and I just love that. What it is is laughter. Like what's connecting all of these people to me, into my videos is that they're just getting a good laugh out of how I represent my dating experiences.
[00:03:33] Joyann Boyce: So there's so many things you said that I wanna touch on, but you mentioned the journey of going from literally behind the algorithm to in front of it, that behind the algorithm, cause as marketers we all have our theories and I think I even asked you a couple questions on Clubhouse, like, is this it or is that true?
[00:03:50] Joy Ofodu: Yeah.
[00:03:50] Joyann Boyce: As much as you can share what is behind algorithm and a little bit more detail. One the rumours I wanna ask is like, is the algorithm against Black and minoritized people?
[00:04:02] Joy Ofodu: Okay. I'll give you my, like, what I know about Instagram and then I'll go into not represent the Instagram, right? Cause I don't anymore.
[00:04:09] Um, my opinion. So what I know about Instagram, a lot of it actually comes from Adam Mosseri, Adam Mosseri, um, Instagram's head right now.
[00:04:17] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:18] Joy Ofodu: And at Creators. So what I loved is that even when I was at Instagram, I was almost getting more tips and information, what hashtags to use, how to be recommended in feed, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:04:29] I was getting more information from the outside at times, right, than I was inside. It's really public. I think people don't realise, they're like, they're, you know, raging against the machine. Like, oh, I just wish I knew. But the things that you see published on at creators and most serious, like his own account—
[00:04:45] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:46] Joy Ofodu: That's, that's what drives Instagram. It sometimes comes a little bit, then changes are enacted. And I think that that's sometimes where the rage, rage can come from, from creators. Cause they go, okay, well my acount's acting up. Why is that? And then Instagram reacts and responds and then creates the educational video to tell you what's been happening.
[00:05:02] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:03] Joy Ofodu: So the only advantage of being an employee to learning the algorithm is that, you see the changes happening as they're happening, right? You see the announcements and the, if you, if you wanna go looking for them, it's a huge, meta is a huge company. I think that's another thing people don't, it's a huge company and that, um, yeah, the privacy policy, right, or terms of being an employee.
[00:05:22] They are a dead series, but they will drop you in two seconds. So, um, though I was definitely curious about other areas, especially when I started becoming a short-form video creator and I was working on the marketing team. I'm gonna be very careful about what information I apply, right, to my account.
[00:05:41] That said, I got a lot of external information. What the Instagram, we're talking about, Instagram's algorithm. What it is, is like, I think of it like a hungry monster. Everybody has their own hungry monsters. It wants their content, it wants to hear from you. Some people's monsters want to eat every day.
[00:05:56] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:57] Joy Ofodu: Some people's every three to five days. So you just have to figure it out. Accounts like the Shade Room post 20 times a day, or more. If I posted 20 times a day or more, I think my algorithm would crash. Uh, but it wants consistency from you. It wants, this is so important. Original content, right? Shot in your phone or shot inside of Instagram using Instagram's text and tools and you know, no other logos don't drag over watermarks from other platforms.
[00:06:24] It wants original content. It doesn't want screen-recorded stuff from your friend's account and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It wants to see you and that is what will drive recommendations. The key to growth on Instagram is consistently sharing original, engaging content and now my marketer's hat on it should do one of three things.
[00:06:42] It should entertain, inform, or persuade.
[00:06:45] Joyann Boyce: Okay.
[00:06:45] Joy Ofodu: If it's not doing any of those three things, and in my head, if it, if you're not optimising for sharing, because a like is a pretty weak signal if you think about it. So now, now .
[00:06:53] Joyann Boyce: Generally,
[00:06:54] Joy Ofodu: Now I'm putting on my Joy. Yes. And now I'm putting on my Joy hat.
[00:06:56] This is not representative of Instagram.
[00:06:58] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:59] Joy Ofodu: But the way that I approach my own creativity and how I was able to reach, you know, at a time that I had about 6,000 followers reach 30,000 people a month. Now I have over a hundred thousand followers. I reach upwards of a million people per, depending on the month, sometimes 3 million, sometimes 500 K, right?
[00:07:15] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:16] Joy Ofodu: Um, but the way that I'm able to reach and exceed far beyond my audience is every single video that I publish. I think what would motivate someone to share this sharing and commenting are really strong signals when you're sharing something. Or even saving. Saving says, I'm gonna come back to the Instagram app to see this later. Right. Sharing says, I, I'm gonna now engage in direct or DMs. Right? I want more people to direct message this around. Commenting says, I'm gonna comment and this is gonna spring up in someone's feed. I want people to know what I think about this topic. Those are really strong engagement indicators and signals.
[00:07:50] Something like just a like, right? Doesn't do it or comment. It's not even as strong. Yeah, doesn't do it. A like says, I saw this, in my head. So I try to optimise for as I'm filming and producing this, what is it gonna get somebody, not just to watch it, but to share it. Sometimes people don't even watch the whole thing through and they already start commenting.
[00:08:10] They'll tell me, they're like, Joy, I, as soon as I saw the wig I gave up, I hate you. You know.
[00:08:14] Joyann Boyce: The time span is just.
[00:08:16] Joy Ofodu: Yeah.
[00:08:17] Joyann Boyce: So you mentioned about the sharing from other platforms, cause a lot of my clients in general, Are trying to do the make it for TikTok and then share its Instagram. I have been recommending against that and saying, just make the video and share them separately, but don't download from TikTok then to Instagram.
[00:08:34] Joy Ofodu: So the thing about downloading to TikTok historically is that when you create a short-form video on TikTok and save it, it will save with the TikTok watermark. Which encodes that information on top and then it becomes weaker when you share it to other platforms. Recently, I think as recently as last week, uh, TikTok has started testing the ability to download your video while you're drafting it without the watermark.
[00:08:56] This is huge. I've been encouraging other apps to do this for a long time. Um, I think it's important cause we know creators are downloading and sharing across Instagram, TikTok, YouTube shorts. Right? That's what I am. I have been creating on Instagram or editing on Instagram, where sometimes I use iMovie, uh, captions, right?
[00:09:15] If I want to, there's an app. I think it's literally called Captions.
[00:09:19] Joyann Boyce: That's another thing. What is your favourite caption app? Cause that's another journey we recommend.
[00:09:23] Joy Ofodu: Instagram is my, Instagram is my favourite period.
[00:09:25] Joyann Boyce: The automated captions?
[00:09:26] Joy Ofodu: Even if I'm, a hundred percent. Even if I'm creating another video to share elsewhere
[00:09:31] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:31] Joy Ofodu: I will create it in Instagram. TikTok, I think has slightly more attractive text styles.
[00:09:36] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:36] Joy Ofodu: When it comes to captions for your, uh, short-form videos, captions is the name of the app. I think it's like $10 a month. I recently invested in that and I love it for podcasts. That's where you get the like word, word, word, word.
[00:09:48] And it's like super flashy. So Instagram doesn't have captions that are that flashy. But I think another thing we need to. It's for accessibility.
[00:09:55] Joyann Boyce: I was about, as soon as you said flash, I was about to say that. Accessibility.
[00:09:59] Joy Ofodu: So you want, you want people who cannot hear your videos or people who need to take extra time to understand your videos, to be like getting flashed at.
[00:10:07] Like, I've been experimenting with it. I'm trying to see what people say. I take in feedback from my disabled followers, um, and like quote unquote non-neuro divergent followers as well. But it's like, I don't mind the traditional caption. That's, that's what people come to me for. I do alt image description.
[00:10:24] And closed captions on all of my short-form videos on Instagram to maximize the reach and just to build for people who aren't typically built for, so there are followers with autism. There are people who speak other languages. And then there are people who are blind or deaf who express to me in my messages or in the comments or tell other people, Hey Joy's videos are awesome.
[00:10:44] I'm so glad that I have this feature, and thank you Joy for doing this. So they'll, blind people message me. Thanks, Joy. Like these videos are really funny and I'm able to get more of it because of your description.
[00:10:54] Joyann Boyce: You were one of the only creators I see that treats the alt description as extended copy.
[00:11:00] And I have been trying to find a way to mass, I think, because I haven't adjusted to alt text in that mindset. It's always been a kind of a practical tool.
[00:11:12] Joy Ofodu: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:12] Joyann Boyce: I like, what is your journey? Do you write the copy first? The caption first, and then the, or is it all in one story?
[00:11:20] Joy Ofodu: It's all in one. So I did recognise that there are some people who are relying exclusively
[00:11:25] on alt image descriptions, and as people were telling me things like, you know, oh my gosh, how funny your eyebrows are, or, I love when she made this face, or blah, blah, blah, or I can't believe this thing is in the background. I'm like, dang, my blind followers will miss all of that. Right? So how can I describe to people what's happening in a way that is still enriching for them, not just like Joy inside bedroom,
[00:11:47] right. Um, you know, I start painting it like, it's like a funny, bad script or I'll be like, indoors day. And I like throwing in cultural references cause I just think if, if you watch any of my videos with your eyes closed or with your ears closed, I still want it to be funny. So that's kind of like my litmus test.
[00:12:03] Um, it has been a journey because as you mentioned, a lot of us are not, especially the able-bodied, right?
[00:12:10] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:10] Joy Ofodu: We're not coded or used. Trying to include alt-image descriptions and describing things for people. If you don't have someone in your life who is blind or someone who is deaf, you're not used to signing, you're not used to all that.
[00:12:22] Um, so it was actually a workshop from Lolo Spencer, who's an incredible actress and disabled creator. She's a wheelchair user. She talked about, you know, Tommy Hilfiger and other brands that were actively building for inclusivity and things that we could do as marketers. You don't even realise how much of our tv, right,
[00:12:39] doesn't have alt-image descriptions. Think about commercials, ads that marketers are making, the short-form videos that they're running. A lot of it has no close captioning whatsoever. And definitely no alt image descriptions, so it's very limiting and I love that I can be a bit more inclusive.
[00:12:56] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:56] Joy Ofodu: Girl, I write it all, write it all at once.
[00:12:58] I, I do it in one go because I want it to be an integral part of the experience.
[00:13:02] Joyann Boyce: I absolutely love it. And we've, I've literally taken screenshots of your captions and. The number one pushback I get from clients when I say, use your alt description as a way to extend your copy. They're like, oh, but we can't be funny.
[00:13:16] And I'm like, just keep your brand tone of voice.
[00:13:18] Joy Ofodu: You don't. Yeah, you don't. We actually don't need to be funny in the alt-image description. That's just my choice cause I'm special, I'm creative and I want like more room to play. You can just descriptively describe something. That's what blind people are looking for.
[00:13:32] Joyann Boyce: The other ones I would, I'm curious to know the feedback as well. Cause something I did notice you don't, I haven't seen it so I might be wrong. I haven't seen you describe your race in your alt description.
[00:13:43] Joy Ofodu: Oh, that's very interesting. Yeah. Joy is African American. I describe myself as ashy. Um, sometimes I'll say joy is 4C curls.
[00:13:52] I'll talk about wave, I'll talk about drag. So I do think that I have indicators there. But I have noticed some people, especially in conferences, Juan is a, you know, Latin American man with a salt and gray pepper bow. Like I've seen that, that's funny. I, yeah, I don't really think about my Blackness as not coming through in my voice or my topics or my comedy, so that's probably why I have it, uh, added it.
[00:14:15] But yeah, you'll, you'll see Nigerian or African or like other references that hopefully clue people in, but if they didn't, what would be funny is if someone doesn't know I'm Black and they're like, are you, that would crack me up.
[00:14:28] Joyann Boyce: Taking in on your content. I get you're looking at yourself as the whole brand, your whole brand. It includes Blackness, so there's no need to specify for each piece of content.
[00:14:36] Joy Ofodu: Yes, it's, that's how ingrained. There's also in my, uh, profile, which I believe that screen readers are able to read, I have that I'm Black on my profile, almost all my profile. So it's, it's an SEO keyword for me and for my business.
[00:14:49] Joyann Boyce: You keep saying things I wanna pick up, so the SEO keyword words. So I dunno if you've heard of a book called Algorithms of oppression?
[00:14:56] Joy Ofodu: Yes. I actually had the fortune of taking Dr. Safiya Noble's class in USC. So yeah, shout out to Saf. Uh, she was an incredible professor and helped me understand more about race as a construct.
[00:15:12] Even just through that brief I belief semester, um, that I was in her class at USC. I used algorithms of oppression as inspiration for a photo project. Um, I called it Search Project Designed to Divide. That actually might still be up on my website, JoyOfodu.Com. So if you're interested in reading about me, the history of the internet, how I was inspired, uh, by that book, feel free to check it out.
[00:15:35] But yeah, she's coming up on the, I think the anniversary of that book as well.
[00:15:38] Joyann Boyce: Yeah, that's one of the books where, for me, being somewhat nerdy, not somewhat, a lot. They justified what I was seeing. Cause I was seeing these things and I'm just like, this feels off for what's something that is taught to me as being like algorithms is taught as being math.
[00:15:54] It's taught as being one plus one equals two. But if the Google is meant to show the whole internet, why is it when I type in women, I'm only getting white women?
[00:16:03] Joy Ofodu: Yeah. This internet wasn't made by us, so it's not made for us. And that's where it comes into my Joyous POV, right? Representing exclusively what I believe through my research and through anecdotal experiences.
[00:16:17] You know, the research is enough. If you don't like my anecdotes, that's fine. Uh, but objectively that's what it is. Black people were not given the chance right at the start of the Silicon Valley to carve, you know, the code of like what we see in search for and experience, thus were not reflected. It's a real shame.
[00:16:35] Uh, it has manifested in ways. For example, the TikTok algorithm and TikTok developed a committee to address this. So I'm not sure if it has been fully addressed, but at one time, uh, their algorithm had a colourist problem. Algorithms have human problems because they're designed by humans. So they are not objective, they're not, you know, they're fed by people who have preferences and biases.
[00:17:00] Joyann Boyce: And people sometimes, not, sometimes, a lot of the time forget that. And—
[00:17:05] Joy Ofodu: Yeah.
[00:17:05] Joyann Boyce: Try to present them as these all-knowing or, it's like no.
[00:17:08] Joy Ofodu: Even Black people have, Black people have biases too, right? Like, uh, it is, while only oppressors or people who are in like a position of power can be racist, uh, that doesn't mean that all people cannot have prejudice or bias. So it's not that any one race, you know, is gonna create a better or best algorithm.
[00:17:27] That's not what I'm saying, but that we're human.
[00:17:28] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:29] Joy Ofodu: And we're all really flawed. So naturally the technology that we design will be flawed as well.
[00:17:34] Joyann Boyce: How have you seen in your time at Instagram or just your time as a creator, those biases play into the choices marketers make, or even how they approach you?
[00:17:45] I'm guessing you probably have a lot of brands approaching here to work with you?
[00:17:49] Joy Ofodu: Yeah. I think the negative end of what that looks like is really last-minute inclusion and campaigns as a creator. So I've been contacted two, three days, sometimes same day of a campaign activation and throw in a
[00:18:04] pithy kind of rate and asked to participate, uh, asked to go out into the world and create something and bring it back. And then when they send examples of the creative that they want me to emulate along the brief, it's like white creators who have already actually filmed and done and submitted and approved the work.
[00:18:22] So I'm like, how are you giving me a, a best and glass example of what this looks like completely finished when you're just inviting me today, and then it kind of clicks. Oh, okay. This is like a multicultural afterthought, you know? So that's the worst of what it looks like. People, including Black creators, like a little sprinkle, you know, a little option as opposed to the beginning.
[00:18:43] Yeah. However, I think the best of what it looks like is I've been able to work with some incredible. A Black people agency side, PR side, marketing interviews, women, et cetera. And those people who think about me at the beginning of the story, at the beginning of the campaign and just deliberately include me and offer me, you know, my rate and my work.
[00:19:04] I love that and it's, it's been happening more and more, but I think the more that you grow and become exposed to other brands and companies, the craziest, the craziest offers will surface.
[00:19:16] Joyann Boyce: It is so surprising, every time I give a workshop and they're surprised that I say, start with inclusion in your strategy.
[00:19:23] Put it in the brief. I, I just, so I'm, I'm just like, you're justifying what I'm hearing as well in terms of they're like, oh no, but we only do it when it's this month or that month, and I'm like, do it.
[00:19:34] Joy Ofodu: That's so weird.
[00:19:35] Joyann Boyce: And put it, yeah.
[00:19:36] Joy Ofodu: We exist all. So let's start there. It's like it's, it almost starts, to me, it feels like I'm speaking in circles when I talk about this topic.
[00:19:43] Um, I wrote about Black Tech Equity on LinkedIn, so you can find like my full paper there. I might cross-post it to my website, but, uh, this is something that I've been wanting to get out for it a long time. I did a Master of Science in marketing at Santa Clara University, and as part of my ethics studies, I wanted to trace like slavery in the United States and the beginning of what the African American experience was to the media landscape that we're experiencing today, along, you know, social media and tech founders.
[00:20:13] So that line shows us and tells us the lack of opportunities that Black founders have had and Black creators have had to pursue artistic careers gainfully, and to have internet access. So I know that's like saying a lot, but if you dig in there and you only wanna take away five pieces that you can just run to your manager with and brag about no matter who you
[00:20:32] those exist and uh, I can, that paper about tech inequity, it contains recommendations for social media managers, agents, and marketers to go away to their companies and like make things better. This isn't just cast black creators in your campaign, but it's also pay them, it's also check up on them. It's also pay them
[00:20:53] unfairly, quote unquote. So pay the no, like what feels unfair is actually justice. Okay. So if we want to a, if this is, you know, here we go. Unpopular opinion time, time, time to shake the table. If we want to achieve equity.
[00:21:08] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:09] Joy Ofodu: Not equality. We need to pay black creators disproportionately, feels awkward. Sounds off. But if you notice the gaps that have existed again from the beginning of slavery of the United States to where we are. You need to adjust that for equity. If you've ever seen that graphic, and people use this in marketing and business on LinkedIn
[00:21:28] Joyann Boyce: The men at the start of the race?
[00:21:29] Joy Ofodu: Yep. The woman at the start of the race and how long hers is and how long other people's,
[00:21:34] you know, or even just the, you know, kind of champions thing where you get the medals in the Olympics, right? How it's like 1, 2, 3, and you see those pillars, right? Equity looks like making those taller who are shorter so that everyone is the same height. Equality is giving everyone, regardless of their height, the same height of pillar.
[00:21:54] Does that make sense?
[00:21:55] Joyann Boyce: Yeah.
[00:21:55] Joy Ofodu: So I hope that, yeah.
[00:21:56] Joyann Boyce: It's funny you say that cause the theme for International Women's Month Day this year is equity instead of equality in the some sort, I can't remember the exact aspect. Um.
[00:22:08] Joy Ofodu: Some people aren't gonna like it, but it's, in my opinion, that's what is necessary to achieve justice.
[00:22:16] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:16] Joy Ofodu: That's what is necessary. Do I believe it's going to happen? Do I have faith that the industry will rush to do it? No. I think we can tell even from the 2020 market. Renaissance of realising that Black Lives matter to Squares 2023 today.
[00:22:32] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:33] Joy Ofodu: All the black squares, all the email newsletters are saying we care about Black lives.
[00:22:37] You know, everybody from Wax Centers to Target to Best Buy to da, da da. And there were some companies that mean it and show it. I mean, let's just, can we pause on Target from marketing? I know I'm probably getting ahead of one of these questions.
[00:22:48] Joyann Boyce: Go ahead.
[00:22:49] Joy Ofodu: But in my opinion, some of the best inclusive marketing work is from Target. Target's out of home has changed so much since that 2020 quote, unquote reckoning.
[00:22:59] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:00] Joy Ofodu: Um, Target's in-store merchandising looks glorious.
[00:23:05] Joyann Boyce: So fill in, because I only know that they did a Tabitha Brown collaboration.
[00:23:11] Joy Ofodu: Okay. So they've gone way beyond Tab, um, Target for several years now. I can date at least 2019. It might have been earlier than that, so forgive me.
[00:23:20] But for several years have had a Black business accelerator. So they're actively investing in and mentor. Shoppable, Black-owned businesses, founders products, you know, from Honey Pot to others like design companies, home decor, things that belong in Target. It's not about creating special sections for products that people don't use.
[00:23:38] These are things that belong in Target, but Black founders don't have that type of access. Target has been investing them, growing them, mentoring them, and then displaying them on the shelves during February and throughout the year. So I think that that's incredible. Just on a product basis. Then merchandise.
[00:23:53] Even for products that are not Black-owned features Black people. Um, so that's, it sounds so bare minimum, but just walk into your local target and look around. Um, take a look at the ads, you're like, wow. Their inclusiveness score is probably off the charts, even the way that they responded to looting and a lot of things that were happening around, uh, protests in Minnesota back in, I think like 2020.
[00:24:17] You know, target had a really, like, we good, you know? Mm-hmm. We support the community-type response. So in my eyes, like Target can do no wrong right now, they just need to keep doing what they're doing.
[00:24:28] Joyann Boyce: Is, I think this is one of the things that I realise, The UK is always catching up to America in some aspects because something similar has recently happened either last year or the year before with Sainsbury and Black-owned food products.
[00:24:43] But what I tend to see here is they have moments and then you don't see anything throughout the year.
[00:24:49] Joy Ofodu: Yeah.
[00:24:50] Joyann Boyce: Uh, some brands have been doing this more subtly, like, I don't know, Primark, which is a really kind of fast fashion clothing line. I have noticed in their storefronts, in the in-store advertisement of clothing, they have a lot more Black and Brown individuals in there.
[00:25:06] They haven't like gone and blasted it.
[00:25:07] Joy Ofodu: Yeah.
[00:25:08] Joyann Boyce: Uh, Sainsbury is one. I'm like, okay, where is this program gonna go? What's the longevity? Where's the budget pushing the products, because that's the other thing. They'll come back with the numbers and say they didn't do well. I'm like, what are you doing? Promote it.
[00:25:18] Joy Ofodu: Yeah. Yeah. I feel that way about Black-owned media a lot, especially here in the United States, um, where people just go, oh, well that's not super popular. Or, which actress? Oh, forgive me, one of our actresses in the Black community in Hollywood who's speaking about these films are regarded as like Black movies instead of just movies.
[00:25:38] And they're not given the adequate push. Uh, yeah. There's an animation company I'll mention that had a really diverse, like inclusive storyline. It featured queer romance. It featured, um, you know, underrepresented people racially, and I didn't see as single, forget me, uh, objectively that marketing budget didn't match other marketing budgets.
[00:25:59] So it's just like sad to see.
[00:26:01] Joyann Boyce: Gosh, it's frustrating and I try to emphasise the comparison of those campaigns that other campaigns, it's just like if you're doing something new, like with anything else, when you're doing it for the first time, it's, it is gonna be a learning curve. There's gonna be a pump.
[00:26:15] It's not that runoff from the moment unless something bad happens and certain people come and comment, but speaking of some positive bits.
[00:26:25] Joy Ofodu: Yeah. Whether it's Primark or Target, people have to start somewhere.
[00:26:28] Joyann Boyce: They have to start somewhere.
[00:26:30] Joy Ofodu: Just get start. Just get started. It's okay to mess up. Just fix it.
[00:26:33] Joyann Boyce: What is a campaign you've seen that's done really good or bad, or inclusivity or implementing Inclusive marketing?
[00:26:42] Joy Ofodu: Okay, I'll give you a bad, the first one that comes to mind when I think like bad and inclusion is Eñe FL. Are you familiar with that uh, campaign? I'm even going to research this one that came up.
[00:26:56] Uh, this was a, it feels like it was just last year, just in 2022, and they tried to do something for the culture and they said. So they said 'the league is proud to celebrate Latino Heritage Month by highlighting N F L players, coaches, and staff partnering with the Hispanic Heritage Foundation and the Hispanic Alliance for Career Enhancement.'
[00:27:23] Uh, you know, 'we look forward to continuing to collaborate with artists and writers. We're here to amplify the voices of the Latino community on and off the field.' So they tried putting an Eñe, like a, which is the name of that, uh, symbol above the N of N F L, and it really fell flat. People were not feeling it.
[00:27:45] They didn't understand it. Uh, they clowned them. It, it was just, um, I think it's, it's hard to say exactly why that failed, but it felt just very symbolic. I think a lot of people missed we're partnering with the Hispanic Heritage Foundation, the Hispanic wives, and all they saw was this like really egregious till day where you would never would've put it before.
[00:28:11] Which isn't even like sayable, it's hard out because yeah.
[00:28:18] Joyann Boyce: Like, so this is the other bit as well. You have brands that do the partnership and then the campaign falls flat or the campaign is amazing and there's no partnership behind it.
[00:28:28] Joy Ofodu: Yeah.
[00:28:29] Joyann Boyce: And it's, yeah. And it’s, it’s finding that balance.
[00:28:32] Joy Ofodu: Yeah. Yeah. There's, uh, there's work to be done, I will say. On the positive and some really good, uh, folks who are working in this area is, um, Dove. Dove did a lot of work around the Crown Act. I've been involved in that in the past as well and just advocating for the end of discrimination of natural care styles in the United States. So they took a problem that almost all Dove users, you know, will be affected by, which is discrimination in the workplace, especially women in Black women who use Dove products.
[00:29:07] They took this issue and said, we're gonna throw behind advocating for legislation. So instead of a company just being symbolic, we care, right? Dove is actually donating money, resources, time, energy people, uh, investing in creators, et cetera, alongside or around this effort, the Crown Act. So I love that. I think it makes total sense for Dove.
[00:29:29] You use Dove products in your hair and on your head, and now they're trying to protect your right to wear your hair the way that you want to. So to me, that's super natural.
[00:29:36] Joyann Boyce: On the Dove one, they are one of best case studies I enjoy because they had some epic fails. Like when they had, they, I didn't. You remember the one with the skin and there was like, dry skin is a Black woman.
[00:29:53] Joy Ofodu: Yes, I recall that ad, you know, I.
[00:29:58] Joyann Boyce: In our fault, if you ever wanna see anyone.
[00:30:00] Joy Ofodu: I believe they've come so far from them.
[00:30:02] Joyann Boyce: So far.
[00:30:04] Joy Ofodu: I love to see, and that's where we talk about mistakes. The entire advertising industry was riddled with really bad ads. Uh, really bad marketing, really non-inclusive products.
[00:30:16] Inclusive inclusivity in marketing doesn't begin with the ad. The ad is almost the last step. It really starts with the product and the product design. So like, I love something like Vaseline, you know, it's petroleum jelly, whatnot. But they're talking about, let's figure out how to get Black people access to, like information about skin cancers and how they appear differently on Black skin.
[00:30:37] And then connect them with a network of like Black aestheticians around the country. And you can do all of this by like purchasing Vaseline, go into the back of the packet, scanning it and coming up with new information that could help save your life. Like I love that. So I, I believe in things like that and things like what Dove is now doing, um, to really like invest in the Black.
[00:30:57] Invest in our awareness and our survival, not just in our aesthetic.
[00:31:02] Joyann Boyce: So what are your thoughts on, say they were in the press with bad stuff, Balenciaga doing, including Black models, including Black people in their campaigns and not putting any extraness behind it cause they know up until, well I don't know, up until recently, I don't know the stats, but we, we are aware Black celebrities wear the brand and have the audience.
[00:31:27] Is that reflected in Balenciaga's marketing? I don't see it, but if they were to shift inclusive marketing.
[00:31:34] Joy Ofodu: It's hard to just shift. You have to revolutionise the way that you do marketing if you want to be taken seriously. So it's not just about, well, let's start quietly, including Black people. Let's start quietly, including trans people.
[00:31:49] Let's start quietly, including disabled people, and hopefully nobody will notice all the egregious things. There has to be a reckoning. There needs to be an overhaul. There needs to be recognition. Ways that people have held power unfairly in the past. In order, and then what you're going to do in the future, who you'll hire in the future.
[00:32:07] Take for example, Alexis Hanian. I think he stepped down, he might, it might have been Reddit that he stepped down from, but stepped down from one of his companies to give way to a Black leader, like I love that. That was the exclusive. I'm sure he wants to with his family and whatnot. But Alexis was like, Hey, uh, bye.
[00:32:23] I think a Black person should be in this position cause I've held this power for too long. I was like, yes. Relinquish. So that was, that was really cool to see. There has to be some sort of, announcement, you know, and some sort of community accountability rather than just gradually shifting.
[00:32:39] Joyann Boyce: Okay. Then what about on the flip end? The small organizations, the ones that don't necessarily have the budget, that are maybe using stock photos and has a one band marketing person.
[00:32:50] Joy Ofodu: That's great. Use Pexels. It's a inclusive stock photo library use. There are a couple more of these. Just search up, uh, inclusive stock photo libraries. They have disability.
[00:33:01] They have Black-owned, Black-led, Black-featured, Black photographers. Search those. I'm a small company too, so I can totally relate to these companies I, things that I do in my business for inclusion. I hire underrepresented staff and like, um, Black executive assistants, Black videographers, I hire Black photographers, Black web designers at every stage of something that you need for your business.
[00:33:26] It's possible for a Black person to fill that role. So that's like a really easy way to start. Another can be as you're outsourcing. Um, production of things. So whether it's t-shirts or experiences, it's a DJ to bring music to a local event or an annual event that you all have, even if it's not happening in February.
[00:33:45] Consider hiring Black hire, Black vendors, other things that you can do or tap into, uh, causes or advocate to issues that matter to the Black community. And that doesn't cost money. You don't need to hire to do that. You just need to. Be well-read, attend, and engage. There are free public events that help you understand more about the Black experience in the United States.
[00:34:08] There are museums that you know, have open days. There's the Black Joy Parade, for example, in Oakland, California. If you're in California, come check it out. It's like the largest free event open to kids and families, um, potentially in California. So just thinking about how you can engage with the Black experience
[00:34:25] beyond even hiring, but at the very least just hire. It's that, it's that simple.
[00:34:32] Joyann Boyce: How do you feel? So I am somewhat getting tired of hashtag days, and I know they are the,
[00:34:39] Joy Ofodu: Like hashtagtivism? .
[00:34:40] Joyann Boyce: Yeah, cause that, that to me is the bare minimum. There is the putting people in your processes, adding them, stock photos, so forth and so forth that you can integrate into your everyday.
[00:34:49] But what I tend to see with a lot of small marketers is when the hashtag day comes about that is, All they do, they will hashtag International Women's Day, Black History Month, which is in October here and I, that's the, the only time they do anything.
[00:35:06] Joy Ofodu: Look at your employees. Well, here's the thing, right?
[00:35:10] Yes, you could celebrate Blackness or women 365 days a year, but it's not even about that. Yes, you can extend the campaign. You can feature a Black person one day per month, per year. That's 12 full days of celebration. It's not about that. I think it's about it being truly integrated into the company's values.
[00:35:30] It's gotta be your ethos. It's gotta be what you're known for. To the point where if someone to represent your company had a T-shirt on and they showed up in a Black neighbourhood, like how do people react to respond? That's almost how I would think about how you need to work on it. So it is a reflection of your employees, of your senior leadership, who's being given the opportunity to represent your company.
[00:35:56] Who is building the product? When you build the product, where are you or service? Where are you testing the product or service? Who are you modelling it on? We talk about AI, uh, we talk about, um, algorithms when you're developing those. and you're training them on faces and you're training them on voices and you're training them on skin colours.
[00:36:19] Who are you using right after you've gotten to your MVP version of your product? Where do you take it? Are you testing in these countries and not these, do you have offerings in Africa? like you can begin there. So many companies, we're global. We're worldwide. This is a world, this is a international company.
[00:36:38] Just say, yeah, this is an international. Then why are there no stops in Africa? You skipped a continent. It's okay to skip Antarctica. It's too cold to to produce a concert there. But why did you skip Africa? So it, you know, oh, we have people, you know, headquartered all around the world. Do you have an office?
[00:36:57] Not in Africa? Why not? Do you believe the African market is worth investing in? Why not? Right? That says a lot about your company.
[00:37:05] Joyann Boyce: That says a lot. I hope you're not talking about someone in regards to the World tour, but I'm gonna skip past that.
[00:37:10] Joy Ofodu: Oh, I am. No, I mean, I, I have, I have no, no qualms with her. Her people will, I love, I love her artistry.
[00:37:17] I love what she's done. I feel, I felt very excited about, I forgot Black is King. Yeah. I felt very excited about Black Is King and seeing like some Nigerian elements in there. Nigerian artists as well. That was, that was. But it is not, it's not a condemnation of a particular artist, a particular tool.
[00:37:38] Particular, it is an assessment of how people view Africa in the business world in general, which, like we're talking about Black history and we neglect Africa from these conversations often because we're speaking about, you know, Black history in the United States. People came to the United States, from Africa, from Europe, and from these other countries.
[00:37:57] The only people who were there first are the indigenous people, which are often also not acknowledged when we talk about US Black history. Um, but when it comes to UK or when it comes to BAME or when it comes to us Black history, like, gotta remember Africa as well. When we talk about being international, we need to remember Africa and African business.
[00:38:16] Joyann Boyce: And that's really important. I think the situation we have in the UK is really interesting because we talk quite a bit about America having larger numbers, having Black identity. That's been there a while, and a lot of the time, the excuse that gets told over here is that there's no Black Britishness, you know?
[00:38:37] Oh, the numbers aren't there and there's situations that are just trying to say that, oh, why are you asking for representation if you're only 4%? And all this, doesn't the numbers don't add up even when you take those numbers into consideration. Cause I have a lot of people who wanna fight against me and say, well, you know, um, Black people, are you UK only whatever percentage of the population, and they think they're seeing that percentage in advertisement.
[00:39:02] I'm like, we haven't even hit 1% yet in representation. Let alone four.
[00:39:06] Joy Ofodu: It's tough because people assess the level of inclusivity that currently exists in national marketing with their own anecdotal views and experiences. So this is a mistake marketers make often. Well, I see commercials that feature this.
[00:39:20] I've been watching a lot of shows. I mean, Viola Davis and Carrie Washington, you know, helm the most popular TV shows, and Barack Obama was the president like, anecdotal views and experiences are not how we assess in research. Research is research. Research often doesn't lie. I love the Annenberg Inclusion Initiative for this reason.
[00:39:40] So we talk about algorithms of oppression.
[00:39:43] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:43] Joy Ofodu: You know, Safiya taught at USC. USC also is the home of an inclusion initiative led by Dr. Stacy Smith. Um, I was a coder researcher there many years ago, but it is the reason why America was talking about Oscars so white. If you remember that conversation years ago.
[00:40:00] Annually, they produce research on the top-grossing film and television, um, series and products and also who's directing and being given the chance to be behind the camera. And then they come up with scorecards, and show people and studios how they're doing. You can imagine, I laugh cause you can imagine how that goes, but as people are saying, well I feel like TV's getting more inclusive and music, they've even starting music now.
[00:40:26] Music is just getting more inclusive. You can go back to research from institutions like the Annenberg Inclusion Initiative, and you find it's not as inclusive as you think, just because you feel it.
[00:40:37] Joyann Boyce: Just because you, you see one commercial doesn't mean it's there.
[00:40:41] Joy Ofodu: Yeah.
[00:40:42] Joyann Boyce: What tip would you give to a marketer, say a marketer is now approaching and starting to work with diverse creators and content creators for their brand or their organization, what tip would you give them in approaching?
[00:40:56] I know it sounds like an odd question, but I get a lot of marketers who are like, I don't know what to say, or I'm not. I personally think they're overthinking it. But what do, would you say to approaching content creators?
[00:41:07] Joy Ofodu: Wait. They say they, they don't know what to say.
[00:41:09] Joyann Boyce: Yes.
[00:41:11] Joy Ofodu: Because black creators. We wanna work with you. What do you say to white creators? Okay. Um, the first thing that I ask people to do, like, for example, this piece I wrote, it's how to ethically navigate the Black creator. Right. Um, first learn about and call out stereotypes and subconscious bias that you see during a selection process.
[00:41:33] So, if you are a brand and you're looking for creators to work with on a certain project or campaign, and at the table of determining who you should work with, you're already seeing people go, oh, well her follower count is not that high. His, you know, technology doesn't look like blah, blah, blah. You know, his quality's not like, okay, well think about the disadvantages the Black creators are at.
[00:41:53] So you need to do sometimes what feels uneven or unequal, right, to create equity within the situation. So if one Black creator has a lower following or lower engagement, then the white creator, you still need to hire that Black creator in order to achieve inclusion and achieve equity. So start to call out biases that you see.
[00:42:14] If you see someone say, well, she just hasn't demonstrated that she can do it. You know, while they, on the other hand, they show a lot of potential. It's like that's, you're saying the same thing? But one person you're kicking out. The other person you're accepting. That's bias and it's subconscious and it is a product of racism.
[00:42:32] So the first thing I ask people to do is to call that out. Um, I recommend that people in marketing verbally call out unpopular ideas and don't try to find a culture fit. If Black people are not represented at your institution, then they're not going to quote, unquote, fit the culture. Black marketers aren't gonna fit your culture if you have a mostly white marketing team.
[00:42:53] That's just natural. So look for the unpopular, look for the wild. Look for the different look for the surprise. That's going to be surprising in the lighting to your consumers as well. So it will translate. Next is to just ensure that Black creators are pitched for your next branded panel or your marketing spot.
[00:43:10] Just take 10 minutes to look through hashtags. This is where hashtags come in handy. Um, look for hashtag Black creator. Black chef, Black makeup artist. Black-owned business, Black vendor so that you can, you know, really find and surface talent. There's zero. Zero excuse for saying that you can't find the right kind of creator, the right kind of business.
[00:43:32] They're out there, UK, US, does not matter. They exist. Just look for them and if you're like, I cannot find them by hand. If you've got the resources as a company, hire somebody to look for them. Promise you they will surface them. You can go to an agency and tell your agency even if it's not a Black event tell your agency, I would like entirely Black-owned vendors.
[00:43:54] Get me a Black caterer, photographer, videographer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we don't quote unquote, need to produce Black things. That's not all we do. Does that make sense?
[00:44:03] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:03] Joy Ofodu: Black people draft briefs. Black people own table and chair companies, Black people craft balloons, Black people bake cakes, like, and they're not all Black balloons and Black cakes and Black music, you know?
[00:44:17] So just think about how you can staff at that end. Um, next I'll say it when, how to approach them. Give them enough time to develop their ideas. Mm. Because if you are asking for pitches from white directors and white creators, then you sprinkle in a black one at the end because you think you're being inclusive.
[00:44:35] This person has had two days to prepare and a weekend that you're not expecting them to work, versus the full five days that you gave the white director or white creator. When you start judging these pitches, you're gonna go, oh, her pitch looks like it was just thrown together really quickly. His didn't quite meet the mark.
[00:44:50] Well, you gave him two days to develop it so what did you expect? You need to give everyone adequate time, or even again, if we're, you know, talking about equity, give them more time. Um, finally just like continue to think about how you're gonna distribute resources, um, give them access to creative tools and practices and like check in on your Black creators throughout the year.
[00:45:13] So when you're approaching, if you as a marketer are like, it's gonna be so transparent. We've never worked with Black people before. They're gonna be so shocked that we've been reaching out. We don't know what to say. You can say that, hey, this is a really, um, you know, pressing time or blah, blah blah for this company.
[00:45:31] We've done an assessment and we've realised we have not been nearly equitable or nearly as inclusive in our marketing as we would like to be and we would love to start the charge with you. There are going to be some headwinds because, you know, we're new here, you know, type energy, but this is really what we feel, you know, we should have been doing.
[00:45:48] We need to do. I'll be like, yeah, you know, I'm, I'm gonna come on board. Sure, let's go. And I've had companies not in writing, but I've had some companies kind of whisper to me. Part of the reason, you know, for inviting me, not always, but on some campaigns, has been this. So just be honest, be upfront with creators.
[00:46:05] I, and on the flip side, you don't need to acknowledge their Blackness. Like I said, it's, it's okay. Yeah. It's balance. You can either, if your company's been horrible, you brought up like a Balenciaga. If your company has like a lot of work to do, when you need to bring it up, you can do that.
[00:46:22] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:22] Joy Ofodu: But if your company's just a run of the mill, you know, haven't had any trouble with PR or anything like that, and you just wanna approach a Black vendor, a black Creator, it's totally okay to not mention their Blackness, just approach them the way you would anybody else at just hi.
[00:46:39] Joyann Boyce: So to double down on a lot of things you just said, it's okay to type a Black women and Black in search engines just to—
[00:46:47] Joy Ofodu: Yes.
[00:46:47] Joyann Boyce: This is another question I have had. It's like I can't find any women or Black women in stock photos or something. Like, did you put the word black?
[00:46:53] Joy Ofodu: Yeah. Black stock photos. Yeah.
[00:46:56] Joyann Boyce: Um, we've got a list of stock photos, websites and stuff like that.
[00:46:59] Joy Ofodu: Awesome.
[00:46:59] Joyann Boyce: The other thing I was gonna say was it is obvious, I feel, especially when I get asked to speak at events, I know one when you're doing it last minute, and I, I can feel when it's just about my race and not the subject matter. So when you're being transparent, be transparent, but also add the, the same like you would with any other creator.
[00:47:20] You would say, Hey, we really love your content. It aligns to our brand X, Y, and Z. Oh yeah. And we wanna increase our representation. X, Y and Z. Simple, simple.
[00:47:30] Joy Ofodu: Yeah. And show that you've read on me like, please research me. It's very evident when brands hit me up and ask me to do something just because I'm Black, like they've selected me.
[00:47:42] It's like, when have I ever shown...
[00:47:45] Joyann Boyce: You don't do cooking videos, Joy?,
[00:47:48] Joy Ofodu: Hey, no cooking night, please. I am new to the cooking, but I love to cook. Yeah, that's, that's, that's been fun but, it's true. Some brands will just approach you because you're you and they've shown that they haven't looked at your content. So the line, we love your stuff and even just pulling up, we love how you create videos that are this and that.
[00:48:06] It's like, okay, I can tell you've, you've done at least a bare something. Bare minimum scroll. Look into me. Yeah.
[00:48:13] Joyann Boyce: So money, no object. What would be a campaign you would create? Let me give you a topic. You mentioned Target. Okay. So it's a campaign to celebrate the diversity of Target’s products that they offer in terms of the founders and the creators of them?
[00:48:34] And you've only got like a minute, for that content.
[00:48:39] Joy Ofodu: It's a minute-long ad?
[00:48:41] Joyann Boyce: Yeah. Thinking hat is on.
[00:48:43] Joy Ofodu: I'll think out loud for people's benefit. So Target is already a pretty inclusive company. I really like the ads that I've seen from them so far. They have a variety of Black-owned businesses I might show, I might do Black owned is for everybody.
[00:49:02] That's probably what I call it. They're gonna steal this. They better cut. They better cut the check. Uh, somebody's gonna steal this cause it's really good. Um, when you do, just invite me to do the voiceover please. But Black owned is for everybody and I would show. By Joy Ofodu. Photo and I would show all the different black accelerator results, right?
[00:49:26] That they have the different products and surfaces, but I would almost show, I would, I would make an effort to show non-Black people using those products with surfaces as well, as well as Black people, because when we see that Black History Month, like they have a dedicated black history month section.
[00:49:48] Joyann Boyce: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:49] Joy Ofodu: In target, which is great cause people like me or anyone else that wants to solicit and support Black-owned business knows where to go. But also, right. Inclusion means that you're not just creating some, just a special little section where that's the only place that this can be found, but that it's also throughout the store so that it might be in someone's normal consideration.
[00:50:07] That's kind of what I would, I would show and I would do something visual, potentially funny. Of course, it could be con it's going to be, yeah, like it's gonna be controversial. It, it might be people shopping in Target and then, you know, like the Black founder, whatever, being everywhere in the store and not just in that one section.
[00:50:28] So it's kinda like you turned your head and it's like they're there with a prompt and they're there. Like it, it might be. Like Get Out type vibes. I might go the horror route. I'm just, I like things that stick in people's memory.
[00:50:41] Joyann Boyce: I really, really liked that. Like, so speaking of Sainsbury's, they did a Christmas ad that was just a Black family celebrating Christmas and arguing over gravy, which is the big thing in the UK.
[00:50:53] And there was outrage cause they were like, oh my gosh, they didn't show any white people in this Christmas ad. But what, I was like, okay, whatever. But they just made an ad about gravy. It was, it was just the everyday of Blackness. I think. I'm looking forward to seeing.
[00:51:10] Joy Ofodu: Yeah, just show us the, well, so here's the thing.
[00:51:11] The reason I said for Target is it's like who are you targeting? I didn't ask you that, and I should have, and I should have asked you a lot more other marketing questions like goals in your KPI and your blah, blah, blah. Right? But if you're Target, that would be my general audience. Ad if you're targeting Black consumers, yeah.
[00:51:27] You don't need to necessarily feature other people. I love that. Just talking about our gravy, that's.
[00:51:32] Joyann Boyce: But yeah, that, no, that ad was for everyone. Like British people love their gravy, so it hit the pit, it hit the mark on the every gravy bit. It's just the rest of England that was racist. Anywhos. It's been so amazing talking with you.
[00:51:48] You have a wealth of knowledge and I just am so I'm excited of everything you've done and everything you're doing. I can't wait to hear your voice every freaking where, like.
[00:51:59] Joy Ofodu: Yes, I've got some exciting Black History Month voiceover content coming towards the end of the month.
[00:52:04] Joyann Boyce: Nice. Let the people know where they could find you.
[00:52:07] Joy Ofodu: You can find me on all social media platforms at Joy Ofodu, or you can go to JoyOfodu.Com.
[00:52:15] Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me. Joy, all of Joy's links will be in the description. Don't confuse our links. I know my name is Joyann, but hers is joy, but uh, all of Joy's links will be in descriptions.
[00:52:28] Thank you so much for listening to the Marketing Meet Inclusive podcast, and we'll catch you soon.
