Ep 26: What is inclusive language?
Shownotes
In this episode of Marketing Made Inclusive, Joyann and Jade explore the concept of inclusive language. Join them as they discuss what inclusive language is and practical examples of how to implement it.
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Useful links:
Hubspot Inclusive Language Blog
Disability language guidelines
Transcript
00:00:16:23 - 00:00:32:08
Joyann Boyce
Welcome and welcome back to the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. I am your host, Joyann Boyce. And today we are joined by our amazing team member, Jade. Hi, Jade.
00:00:32:10 - 00:00:34:24
Jade Pett
Hello.
00:00:35:01 - 00:00:57:18
Joyann Boyce
This episode is actually Jade's idea and it's a thing that we talk about internally, but I always forget to do an episode on it. And Jade's like, When are we going to do it? When are we going to do it? Because we spent a lot of time talking about it. So introduce today's episode and topic and then we'll dive right in.
00:00:57:20 - 00:01:12:05
Jade Pett
Okay, so today we're talking all about inclusive language, which, like you said, is something we talk a lot about because language is everywhere. It's really important. So do you want me to go in with like, a definition?
00:01:12:07 - 00:01:26:10
Joyann Boyce
Yes. For anyone who doesn't know. Because we talk a lot about inclusive marketing. And if you don't know what inclusive marketing is, we do have some early episodes that you can go check out. But specifically focusing on inclusive language, what is it?
00:01:26:12 - 00:01:49:02
Jade Pett
So according to HubSpot, inclusive language is the words and phrases you use to avoid biases, slang and expressions that discriminate against groups of people based on race, gender, socioeconomic status and ability. When used, you can resonate with more audiences by speaking and writing in ways that everyone understands and makes everyone feel welcome.
00:01:49:04 - 00:02:22:24
Joyann Boyce
I love a good HubSpot quote because you know how it's going to angle everything in a marketing sense. And when it comes to inclusive language, a lot of the conversation around online is around either gender or LGBT. But Hubspot has listed a few things in there that you have to consider. Like I know when I think about it, outside of my work and outside of marketing, I hear a lot of people talking about pronouns and, you know, changing the words of things.
00:02:23:01 - 00:02:39:12
Joyann Boyce
But in a marketing context, it just makes sense. I think that's, that's my debate for everything, it just makes sense because HubSpot, what did they list the candidates listed? Race, Gender.
00:02:39:15 - 00:02:44:12
Jade Pett
Race. Yes. Socioeconomic status and ability.
00:02:44:14 - 00:03:20:03
Joyann Boyce
So what's happening to new audiences with the words that you use? I think that's like when thinking about marketing and trying to reach new audiences. It did bring to mind, I don't know if you remember this one Jade when Spotify, they did their Spotify year wrap up, it was a few years back. And one thing that the House what quote does not mention is like generation.
00:03:20:23 - 00:03:40:21
Joyann Boyce
And the difference is in age is now online. There was a kind of situation with the Spotify rap because they were using what everyone was saying was Gen Z slang. So back then it was like slay. I can’t even remember, was lit around then. I don't know.
00:03:40:23 - 00:03:42:01
Jade Pett
Yeah.
00:03:42:03 - 00:03:45:01
Joyann Boyce
Slay, lit, honey.
00:03:45:01 - 00:03:45:21
Jade Pett
Bae.
00:03:45:23 - 00:04:18:18
Joyann Boyce
Bae. What? They were just using words that was popular at the time with Gen Z. However, the internet came quickly and corrected to them. Is that actually you're using AAVE. American African vernacular, which is African-American, African American slang words. And then those individuals who were advocating for that were also then corrected and said, actually the words that you're using come from Black gay culture in America.
00:04:18:20 - 00:04:40:12
Joyann Boyce
And it was just so fascinating to see how this trickled down in like words, and specifically slay. That is gay culture. And it came from them, but it got so popularised. And then when a brand used it and it's like, is this, are you even supporting anyone? Like, why are you using these words?
00:04:40:14 - 00:04:41:18
Jade Pett
Yeah, yeah.
00:04:41:20 - 00:04:50:14
Joyann Boyce
Have you seen any cases where these situations where brand has used language and you're just like, no, they should not?
00:04:50:16 - 00:05:07:22
Jade Pett
Oh, probably. I don't think I can remember specifically. I feel like a lot of makeup brands use that kind of language, but for some reason it fits, because I feel like a lot of the, the thing with language is it just gets like. Oh I don't know how you pronounce the word, indoc...
00:05:07:24 - 00:05:08:10
Joyann Boyce
Indoctrinated.
00:05:08:10 - 00:05:27:07
Jade Pett
That’s the one. And so you can never pinpoint where it comes from. And so it just kind of becomes, quote unquote, normal. And so actually, that's one of the things researching, like the amount of words I would never have known weren't inclusive or were like exclusive, I suppose.
00:05:27:09 - 00:05:51:21
Joyann Boyce
And that's another layer of it, because internally we have our own inclusive language dictionary and the rabbit holes you can go on with some of these words, it is a lot. So the inclusive language dictionary started when I was consulting with clients and there was a lot of things where I was just like, oh, this is a common thing that I thought everyone knew.
00:05:51:21 - 00:06:18:04
Joyann Boyce
Like I feel like by now everyone knows when you doing LGBTQIA+, whichever version of LGBT+, you capitalise all the letters. But that's where, where it's an acronym, we’re aware to capitalise it. Yeah, but capitalising it is also inclusive because it's saying that each letter means something. Which it does.
00:06:18:06 - 00:06:19:02
Jade Pett
Yeah.
00:06:19:04 - 00:06:27:16
Joyann Boyce
And I was surprised when I was working with clients that they weren't aware about capitalising the B in Black when referring to Black people.
00:06:27:18 - 00:06:32:16
Jade Pett
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's one I see a lot.
00:06:32:18 - 00:07:01:23
Joyann Boyce
It happens a lot because people use lowercase B and that's referring to like the colour. But capital case B's for people. And that was one of the first things I ever put in dictionary when we started. And as we've been building out, we've gone on some, tonne of rabbit holes and words that we just thought, oh, this is just a word that means this, But you pick up the history of it and it has a whole other meaning, what, not.
00:07:02:00 - 00:07:11:09
Joyann Boyce
I don’t know if I can frame as one of your faves, but what is what was the one that was either really surprising or a word that you just was new to you?
00:07:11:11 - 00:07:35:09
Jade Pett
So the ones that really shocked me are words that are used in our everyday language. We use them all the time. Little did we know it has this, like extensive history to it. I remember the first time this happened. It was with mumbo jumbo, which sounds like, I mean the point of mumbo jumbo. I think it sounds like it's a made up word, which is what we use it for.
00:07:35:09 - 00:07:56:06
Jade Pett
We use it to refer to something vague, something made up, something silly. And actually it has this religious history to it. It was used, I want to say an African tribe, but I cannot, this was a long time ago. So. So I can't remember the exact details, but I'll, there will be details in the show notes I'm sure.
00:07:56:08 - 00:08:18:20
Jade Pett
And it's was, I'm pretty sure it's a man. And he would go around. It was a religious, what’s the word, like festival kind of thing. It was a religious practice and this man would be called mumbo jumbo. But of course, Westerners went over there and we're like, what is what is going on? This it all sounds like made up.
00:08:18:20 - 00:08:37:04
Jade Pett
This is all like a load of malarkey. And so we took that word and then used it to mean like made up strange, silly, because that's what it sounded like to them. And they thought this like practice was like strange and silly. So they took that word and then morphed into that meaning. So when you think about that, that's so horrible.
00:08:37:06 - 00:09:13:11
Joyann Boyce
Is so like erasing a whole culture, religious practice, just there's so many elements of it. And the whole fact that it becomes popularised that our generation's our, our time period is not even aware of the impact, the commonplace use of the word is. And then imagine a brand using that and advertising and not aware of the impact it has to a particular religious group.
00:09:13:13 - 00:09:16:21
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, it just doesn't position them in the right place.
00:09:16:23 - 00:09:24:10
Jade Pett
No, no, it just, it makes it. I've never used that word again. Like it just changes you when you realise these things.
00:09:24:12 - 00:09:47:24
Joyann Boyce
We have so many words like that in a dictionary. I remember the two that I actively tried to, so there's two elements in this conversation. There's words that you want to remove from your day to day language, and then there's words that are day to day in marketing. And in one of the words that crosses both elements for me is the word crazy.
00:09:48:01 - 00:09:48:19
Jade Pett
Yeah.
00:09:48:21 - 00:10:16:12
Joyann Boyce
I don't think I see it as much anymore, but I remember growing up you'd see like, Oh, this is a crazy deal or crazy something and just describing, yeah, something big or something exciting. They would use the word crazy. And then growing up in my own like life, I would describe people in that way or describe myself in that way or just describe things using that word.
00:10:16:14 - 00:10:34:11
Joyann Boyce
And then we dived into the research of it for the inclusive language dictionary. And I'm just like, that is not what I mean. The actual meaning of the word is not what I mean, the actual what the people are trying to get across when they use it in describing this is deals or discounts is not what I mean.
00:10:34:11 - 00:10:46:20
Joyann Boyce
So I know for me I still I still slip up. I still say, oh, describe something, but I'll catch myself and my go to replacement word now is like chaotic because that's.
00:10:47:00 - 00:10:47:18
Jade Pett
Yeah.
00:10:47:20 - 00:11:09:09
Joyann Boyce
That's what like I'm trying to improve my language by thinking of what do I actually mean when I'm saying this? And then in terms of marketing, I think is it's such a easy word to rely on that I just don't.
00:11:09:09 - 00:11:12:04
Jade Pett
I has that like clickbait element to it.
00:11:12:06 - 00:11:41:20
Joyann Boyce
Mm hmm. And it's just and if anyone's wondering why I'm crazy, it's not an appropriate term is because it comes from like mental health and describing individuals. And the word caused a lot of harm over history, like people who would describe in that way were condemned, put in institutes. There's a whole range of things attached to it. So the historical attachment to the word is just not the one and another word that I did relate to.
00:11:42:01 - 00:12:07:12
Joyann Boyce
But I didn't realise why kind of with the historical attachment as well, was I'm historical. It's not a word I've seen in marketing. It's not that I've come across in the ads, but it's a word that always I just hated it. I just I didn't know why I hated it. I just hated the word hysterical. Like no matter how it was used, and I was like.
00:12:07:13 - 00:12:12:00
Joyann Boyce
Oh, yeah, this is this is gender linked.
00:12:12:02 - 00:12:34:04
Jade Pett
As someone who did a literature degree that we there is a lot of like reading of older texts and researching like because gender is something that come up again and again in literature. It's a really easy go to and the amount of times women really were labelled as hysterical and like what they really meant by that. It just like grinds my gears to even think about it.
00:12:34:06 - 00:12:58:04
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, I think it came up in psychology as well. Like, yeah, there's so many layers, but it's so funny that my lived experience made me dislike a word when I didn't understand why, and now I understand it. I'm just like, wow, there's so much in our culture that shapes the way words are used. I remember a word we discuss
00:12:58:06 - 00:13:03:22
Joyann Boyce
often and we're still kind of exploring is the word master.
00:13:03:24 - 00:13:14:09
Jade Pett
Yeah, yeah. I feel like every time I research it, there's like always new compelling arguments from all directions.
00:13:14:15 - 00:13:21:13
Joyann Boyce
So give us a breakdown on the general discussion on Master before we dive into our debates with it.
00:13:21:15 - 00:13:44:14
Jade Pett
So Master, I mean, it has slavery connotations because a master would be, it’s ownership, right? Is like owning something, but it's used so often in like, just a master bed. So that's like, I think like the man of the house, the main bed. It’s used all the time for little things like that these days.
00:13:44:16 - 00:14:44:08
Joyann Boyce
And it's so embedded into so many layers. Like I know within the tech community they had a switch from using like Master branch or master copy to main or parent, and there was a lot of debate around that. And even, even in describing it as well, there's two elements. There's the race element, but there's also the gender element as well that the main thing or the head of the household is male and so, yeah, like there's so many layers within the word master itself because even when you think about like master bedroom, it implies that the head of the household is there and then the head of the household is male.
00:14:44:10 - 00:14:45:23
Jade Pett
So yeah.
00:14:46:00 - 00:15:16:09
Joyann Boyce
That's one side. There's historical elements and I have been challenged a lot. Whenever I raised that word with clients or raised that word, what people who want to label things like masterclass and the ongoing debate is can something be a master if there is not a slave attached to it? So if you're calling something master class, you are then implying that the upper classes are quote unquote, unfortunately, slave classes like.
00:15:16:11 - 00:15:28:15
Joyann Boyce
But there were there's a separate history to the word in relation to the translation of cultures. When someone is called like the most knowledgeable person.
00:15:28:17 - 00:15:30:01
Jade Pett
Yes.
00:15:30:03 - 00:15:34:19
Joyann Boyce
And it's like, you know, the apprentice learns from the master.
00:15:34:21 - 00:15:36:23
Jade Pett
Yeah. They are master of their craft.
00:15:37:00 - 00:16:10:02
Joyann Boyce
Mm hmm. And that context is interesting. And I think this is where inclusive language gets really not necessarily tricky, but detailed and nuanced, where I think within countries where there is that element of like a long history of training the craft years and years, and I'm thinking mainly Eastern Asian countries. The word translated to English may not have any connotations or any links.
00:16:10:04 - 00:16:11:07
Jade Pett
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:11:09 - 00:16:39:21
Joyann Boyce
But when you're within a society where that is literally the backbone of where the society, you know, gained its wealth and so forth, there are direct links. So as a marketeer you have to start thinking specifically about what locations are you targeting with your ads, with your naming of things like what location is this going out to, what market is it serving, and how will that be received.
00:16:39:23 - 00:16:41:23
Jade Pett
100%.
00:16:42:00 - 00:17:04:13
Joyann Boyce
But yes, we have an ongoing in terms of there's almost a definite alternative replacement for the word master in almost any use case. My personal, minor thing, not minor, but I'm exploring a to find a replacement word for the word master class.
00:17:04:15 - 00:17:06:07
Jade Pett
Yeah.
00:17:06:08 - 00:17:35:11
Joyann Boyce
And the reason is, one, there's a literal brand of a company named Master Class like they've unnamed that. It's fascinating, because what that implies is everyone on the course is in the way. That one is a master of their craft know, and they're not just representing one type of person. They have a wide variety of people on that delivering courses.
00:17:35:13 - 00:17:23:00
Joyann Boyce
But the reason I think master classes such a ancient word is because sound wise and length wise, there aren't replacements that fit it like workshop or lecture or it doesn't have the same. That's one thing, the same,
00:17:23:00 -00:17:23:00
Jade Pett
Zing.
00:17:23:00 - 00:18:07:01
Joyann Boyce
zing the same. And it is. This is solely a marketing, not even not a conundrum, just a marketing toy.
00:18:07:02 - 00:18:25:17
Joyann Boyce
It's not to remove from the reason of not using master, but it is when you're writing, copying, you're trying to have a sentence flow and sound well out loud and have the same meaning. Because when people hear the word lecture, they imagine something different.
00:18:25:19 - 00:18:26:14
Jade Pett
Yeah.
00:18:26:16 - 00:18:41:20
Joyann Boyce
Same with workshop. Do you imagine like a group of people? You imagine something different. So it's an interesting one. Any of the words you want to pull out from what we've we've researched within the dictionary.
00:18:41:22 - 00:19:07:23
Jade Pett
There's one other thing that I found really interesting, and it's, see the more you researched inclusive language, the more you realise it's so nuanced. And there's even times where you think there's a word that's inclusive, but actually you can't use it in every single scenario. Like remember researching Native Americans because I especially like taught up on, through history was taught that Native American.
00:19:07:24 - 00:19:27:15
Jade Pett
That's like that's the that's the proper way of saying, referring to that community. But then in research some people supposedly, again from the research I found prefer Indians, actually some communities prefer to be named by specific tribes. There's no you can always just use one term and apply it to every one. Sometimes it's more nuanced than that.
00:19:27:21 - 00:19:45:17
Jade Pett
People with disabilities, I think, is another one that not every single time it's going to be the same. Like I, I've always stated people with disabilities because that's my personal preference of someone who doesn't have any disabilities, and that's what I feel most comfortable with. But there are people out there who still prefer to be called a disabled person.
00:19:45:19 - 00:19:59:11
Jade Pett
So it's, it's not always one case fits all scenario, even if it is quote unquote, an inclusive term, there is still a layer of nuance and doing your own research and figuring out the community you're talking to specifically.
00:19:59:13 - 00:20:22:10
Joyann Boyce
Mhm. And that's so important when it comes to marketing and targeting different segments like when you're targeting in America. I think something we noticed as well in our research when we were looking at inclusive language for the UK, there were very specific things that we know like Black, Asian and even when they talk about Asian in the UK, they specifically really mean South Asian.
00:20:22:12 - 00:21:00:07
Joyann Boyce
But there's no separation. Whereas when you talk about Asian in America, you mean East and when I say mean I, it's what you can infer from the imagery they use. And similarly with Native American, that's where the language has been shifting, where people are specifically talking about their tribes and, or I've heard people use indigenous because there is, and I don't know if this is a preference or a movement is something I think I would love to speak to an American who's from that culture about it.
00:21:00:09 - 00:21:33:07
Joyann Boyce
What is the, the, the tone or what is the original reference that wasn't Westernised because that's another element of it. What is the original term that that probably the community is probably trying to reintroduce and make it the new normal term versus what's been Westernised. There's so many layers and this is why we are building a software to help with this, because it changes even for us in our day to day.
00:21:33:09 - 00:21:57:02
Joyann Boyce
We are testing the include language checker internally and using it with clients and kind of updating different aspects of who they're targeting, what audience they're looking at and trying to keep ourselves up to date because things change so quickly. The word I tend to use to kind of show the change for people is, I don't know, Jade, you might be too young for this.
00:21:57:02 - 00:22:04:17
Joyann Boyce
I'm being slightly ageist here, but tell me if you know the word phat as in phat.
00:22:04:19 - 00:22:08:02
Jade Pett
I know of it.
00:22:08:04 - 00:22:42:21
Joyann Boyce
Oh gosh. So anyone who was around in the nineties, you know a little bit, remember how that was like the trendiest word ever. And now I don't even know if I've ever I've seen it anywhere. I don't even know if it's still a brand. And now when someone says fat, they mean f a t, not p h a t. And then there's a whole movement now of people reclaiming the word fat and meaning it and saying that and how they refer to themselves.
00:22:42:23 - 00:22:44:02
Jade Pett
Yeah.
00:22:44:04 - 00:22:55:18
Joyann Boyce
Times things change with the times. And the other word I like to show people is like before 2020, would any of us had known how to pronounce COVID?
00:22:55:20 - 00:22:57:19
Jade Pett
No, that's a good point.
00:22:57:21 - 00:23:08:08
Joyann Boyce
We will be in call it covad or coved because it's normally spelt in all capitals as well. Probably C O V I D.
00:23:08:10 - 00:23:09:02
Jade Pett
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:09:04 - 00:23:46:21
Joyann Boyce
That is the way. But we were all indoctrinated into using that word during the time period and now it's become normal. It's become and that's the kind of situation with inclusive language. It is this constant growing and moving and multi nuanced element. It's a fascinating one. One of the things I'm going to go back to, as you mentioned, the difference between when referring to disabled community person with disability versus disabled person.
00:23:46:23 - 00:24:12:13
Joyann Boyce
And I find that one really interesting and I think the way an organisation use it depends on the context, which is always, always context. It matters. But when partnering or when directly working with a disabled person or disabled community, I think you use the language they use to refer to themselves.
00:24:12:13 - 00:24:14:22
Jade Pett
Yes, Yes.
00:24:14:24 - 00:24:41:06
Joyann Boyce
I think that's the rule that goes above all the other rules wherever the person tells you. And I think that can apply to a lot of communities. However, they tell you they want to be described as community and or person use that, pronouns, race, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's a slight caveat to that. If their descriptor is an offensive word, you may not want that linked to your brand.
00:24:41:08 - 00:25:17:14
Joyann Boyce
Chances are very slim that it would be. Then. Second to that, I think is multi nuance when it comes to disabilities, because the argument within the community and I am a person with dyslexia, I am not do not have a physical disability, I'm not representing the disabled community is something I have witnessed where people who refer to themselves as a disability like I am dyslexic, are saying they don't want to be labelled as a person with disabilities.
00:25:17:14 - 00:25:34:05
Joyann Boyce
So therefore I am a person with dyslexia because it removes, it makes it sound like you can remove the thing. So it makes it sound like one day I will be a person without dyslexia.
00:25:34:07 - 00:25:35:04
Jade Pett
Yes.
00:25:35:06 - 00:25:59:00
Joyann Boyce
And that will never happen for me and that's how I see it. So there are people who are saying when you put the with, you're adding separation, and sometimes that can make it nice and comfortable for non-disabled people to put the width because it's like, oh no, I'm treating you as a human. I'm not treating you as a disability.
00:25:59:02 - 00:26:31:12
Joyann Boyce
But sometimes the two are so intertwined. It's, it's an interesting one. And like I said, it's an ongoing debate within communities and within especially within inclusive design as well. How to phrase that when you're talking about your customers and when you're talking about your target audience. But when someone was explaining to me the way I understood it was, it's kind of like when people say, oh no, I don't see race or I don't see gender.
00:26:31:14 - 00:26:39:01
Joyann Boyce
It's like, no, you do, You can't remove that.
00:26:39:03 - 00:26:40:14
Jade Pett
Yeah.
00:26:40:16 - 00:26:48:19
Joyann Boyce
And that might be the difference in between visible and non-visible disabilities.
00:26:48:21 - 00:26:51:22
Jade Pett
Yeah, it's a good point.
00:26:51:24 - 00:27:03:24
Joyann Boyce
It's an interesting one. But from a marketing perspective, I think number one rule go with how they describe themselves. Number two, rule. Be prepared to be corrected.
00:27:04:01 - 00:27:07:20
Jade Pett
Yes, that's a good rule.
00:27:07:22 - 00:27:43:14
Joyann Boyce
And then number three, it says inclusive language is constantly changing. It's okay. Just be prepared to be corrected and update as needed. Yeah, so many layers that we probably there another facet on this because we didn't speak about we spoke about crazy but we didn't speak about some other like we just probably the top five on disabled terms that have become normalised and oh gosh ableism that is of all the sections within our inclusive language dictionary.
00:27:43:14 - 00:28:07:14
Joyann Boyce
I think language that is ableist and become normalised is probably the biggest one for me where and it's used so much in marketing, the others are kind of like intentionally use like gender stuff. They're probably like if you're calling people, guys or Huns in your marketing campaign, you made a active thought about it.
00:28:07:16 - 00:28:08:21
Jade Pett
Yeah.
00:28:08:23 - 00:28:43:11
Joyann Boyce
But ableist stuff. But anywho, quick note I've mentioned it quite a few times but within Include AI inclusive clues marketers platform that we're building our users get access to our inclusive language dictionary like the words in that I get to see it so if you want access make sure you sign up to our waitlist. Jade, where can the people find you on the internet?
00:28:43:13 - 00:28:49:15
Jade Pett
It's very easy. I'm on LinkedIn literally at Jade Pett.
00:28:49:17 - 00:29:11:15
Joyann Boyce
Easy. The links in the shownotes and thank you for joining myself. I am Joyann Boyce. That is J O Y A N N B O Y C E. You can find me at Joyann boys all over the Internet. All the links mentioned will be in the show notes and tune in next week for us, talking about all things inclusive marketing.
