Ep 33: The Evolution of Inclusive Marketing with David Maher Roberts
In this insightful episode, Joyann is joined by David Maher Roberts. Together, they delve into the world of print marketing, reminisce on marketing from the 90s, underscore the importance of understanding cultural nuances in marketing strategies and predict the future of inclusive marketing.
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Transcription
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:16:16
Joyann Boyce
Welcome and welcome back to the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. I am your host, Joyann Boyce. And today we have a special guest, well all my guest are special. But I’ve known David for a minute, David Mark Roberts. Hi David, how are you?
00:00:16:18 - 00:00:18:16
David Roberts
I'm good. Joyann, how are you?
00:00:18:18 - 00:00:38:03
Joyann Boyce
I'm good. I'm good. I have been excited to have you on the podcast because I think your podcast was one of the first I did. Yeah. And I was just like on the podcast, taking notes. Taking notes. So you've inspired me, but please do let the people know a little bit about you and your background.
00:00:38:05 - 00:01:17:04
David Roberts
Sure, well. So, I have been in digital media and tech start-up world for the past 25-30 years. I started my life in publishing, way from university. I was an I was the editor of the student magazine, the student newspaper in Cardiff. That's how I got into journalism and into understanding how to build your own newspaper. And then I went to a job at Future Publishing in Bath and worked on computer game magazines and then, you know, I sort of accelerate through that.
00:01:17:04 - 00:01:56:10
David Roberts
I then moved from magazines into digital, so I launched GamesRadar and TechRadar, one of those big massive websites that are out these days, and I ran all of the digital stuff for future globally. So I did a lot of work with consumer stuff and then I went to tech start-ups and worked for Peter Gabriel and I was the CEO of a start-up for him called The Filter, which was a music, machine learning music playlist tool, which we then turned into because we couldn't make much money out of that, and we turned it into a recommendation engine for videos mainly.
00:01:56:12 - 00:02:23:13
David Roberts
So we plugged into Dailymotion, the big video site, for example, but we also use it for music with Sony Music and a lot of other clients. And in the UK, the BT vision set top box use, used that that recommendation technology to recommend what you might want to watch next. So I really got into tech and start-ups and I then did various other things.
00:02:23:13 - 00:02:46:02
David Roberts
I basically launched and created and launched Tech Spark that you probably know, given that you're very involved with it and with a bunch of friends. We also launched The Sparkies. We started that whole thing going and, you know, did that for five or six years before handing it over to a professional team as opposed to us that we were a bunch of volunteers trying to do it.
00:02:46:02 - 00:03:10:11
David Roberts
in our spare time. And then, yeah, I've since then I've basically worked for another publishing company, Immediate Media, who have a lot of BBC properties like Top Gear and BBC Good Food and stuff like that. And I ran their sports division, so I looked after all of the sports side of things and then I joined a marketing agency called Dialect.
00:03:10:13 - 00:03:29:16
David Roberts
So that was back in 2017. It was an American agency that was based in San Francisco, run by a couple of friends of mine, and they had just won Logitech as a client and there was only like eight or ten of them, and they suddenly became this global client and they were like, oh my God, we need some help.
00:03:29:18 - 00:04:07:18
David Roberts
How can you help us build a team? So I joined them and as COO and built that team and then went on to be like 80 plus people and a really big thing. So that was a journey and did that for six years. And then since then I left in May of this year and I basically gone back to start-up world and looking after founders, advising companies like, I advise Gravitywell, you are Bristol's venture studio and I advise 18Sixty who are a podcast production agency based in Bristol as well.
00:04:07:18 - 00:04:30:21
David Roberts
And I advised Bristol Innovations, which is a part of the University. So that's kind of gives you a bit of a tour. I haven't mentioned my podcasts in the process because right now they're kind of all asleep. But, but I have, I've loved I love podcasting, as you know, and one of the reasons I work with 18Sixty, the podcast agency, is they do podcasts for brands.
00:04:30:21 - 00:04:54:04
David Roberts
And so I can still do a little bit of podcasting by actually helping them with my business experience. But I had my own podcasts. I had a project called Pod World, which is a podcast recommendation podcast. That one was great. I was doing that with Louise Blain, a friend of mine who's like, she's the professional in the group.
00:04:54:06 - 00:05:15:09
David Roberts
She's like a proper radio presenter. And we did that during pretty much throughout lockdown. We did 2, we did about 24 episodes and the idea was we would choose a theme like Love or Murder or something, and then we would recommend podcasts that we would listen to. So that was the idea of Pod World.
00:05:16:02 - 00:05:21:23
Joyann Boyce
I didn't know about Pod World. So you had a podcast talking about other podcasts?
00:05:21:23 - 00:05:45:01
David Roberts
Yes, it's very meta, because Louise and I are such massive podcast fans. We could just. Yeah, talk about podcasts all the time and during lockdown. Obviously podcast listener numbers went through the roof. So we just thought, oh, you know, people have got time, let's do a show about podcasts. And then we would invite other podcasters on a chat about podcasting.
00:05:45:01 - 00:05:57:01
David Roberts
So we had yeah, it was, it was really good fun. And then I had the one that we talked about, I think I can't remember what it was either What Now, which was a marketing podcast, was it that one?
00:05:57:07 - 00:05:58:14
Joyann Boyce
Yeah. What now.
00:05:58:16 - 00:06:31:23
David Roberts
So What Now was again done during the pandemic and that was really done for Dialect, my agency and it was, it was basically what the hell is happening out there? You know what, what do we do now? So we spoke to marketeers across, across the UK and that was really good fun. But the first project I did was called Seeking Out the Next Generation, and that I did as a group project with basically about seven or eight kids, as I like to call them, but they were probably all in their early twenties.
00:06:32:00 - 00:07:06:22
David Roberts
But it involves my daughter Ella, who's a big fan of podcasting, and it involved all the youngsters at my agency pretty much, and the idea was there are so many great young people out there with really inspirational stories, but they don't necessarily have a platform frequently because and this does probably talk to your general idea of inclusivity because, you know, most platforms are owned and run by the sort of usual people that own and run media, right?
00:07:06:22 - 00:07:35:01
David Roberts
So the stories tend to be always either older people. I don't mean super old, but like, you know, people my age, right? And so I was just inspired by these incredible 17, 18 year olds. And there was a whole raft of, raft of stories from people who had gone through, battled through illness, other people who there's just one guy who played for Manchester City as a, as a kid and then got these terrible injuries.
00:07:35:01 - 00:07:49:21
David Roberts
And he basically his entire dreams just collapsed. And then he reinvented himself as this incredible businessman, you know, and ended up on The Apprentice. So it was lots of great stories. So that's that was a long ramble and intro. But there you go. That was me. That's me. So far.
00:07:49:21 - 00:08:13:03
Joyann Boyce
It's a multi-faceted career, but there's a general theme throughout of media and content in all shapes and forms. Like even when I had a look and you're talking about publishing, I just like I know you so much as a digital person that the idea that you publish in printed physical things. I know I'm speaking like a Zennial, millennial or whatever. But I was like oh snap.
00:08:13:05 - 00:08:19:03
David Roberts
There are things that are printed.
00:08:19:05 - 00:08:36:07
Joyann Boyce
You had to do marketing, and that was it. You had that bot. How, how was that shift? Because I imagine I never did print publishing. I never did print marketing. To me it seems like a whole different world. But how was the shift from that to digital?
00:08:36:09 - 00:09:06:08
David Roberts
It's, it's a completely different world so that the shift is very, was very and still is to some companies very challenging because the business model for starters the business model is completely different because predominantly content is free in the digital world. Now that's changing actually. And the most recent times that has started to change. But the certainly for the first 10-15 years of the revolution, it was free.
00:09:06:10 - 00:09:31:20
David Roberts
And I came from a world of specialist publishing which were like computer game magazines, movie magazines, and these were all magazines you could charge. I ran the official PlayStation magazine for a long time, which was the biggest magazine in computer games. It sold 400,000 copies a month at its height for £4.99. So, you know, it had a disc on the front, which is one of the reasons.
00:09:31:20 - 00:09:58:14
David Roberts
And so before the Internet, we would use the disc to play demos of the games you might want to buy. So it was a fantastic marketing and distribution vehicle for Sony and the publishers. And then we obviously had an editorial team around that would pack it full of great content at the same time. But when you shift that to an Internet model, there's no reason to charge for it.
00:09:58:16 - 00:10:24:04
David Roberts
It becomes okay. It becomes an advertising led model. So suddenly you're going from niche publishing and Playstation's a bad example at 400,000 copies because most other niches were small. There were sub 100,000 a month, right? You go from niche to suddenly you're having to make money through advertising, which is a volume model. So suddenly you're having to do you can't be that niche because if you too niche you make no money.
00:10:24:06 - 00:11:01:17
David Roberts
So. So yeah, it was, it was seismic, the change. I'm lucky that I've always been interested in technology. I think that's the other, the other constant through my career is not just being communication. Media communication is also technology. So, you know, at the university, we one of the first we moved to desktop publishing from cutting up bromides, which obviously you're too young for this sort of stuff but cutting up, you used to have to print out on the special paper your stories into strips and you would cut and paste them as how you would how they would be laid out.
00:11:01:21 - 00:11:04:02
David Roberts
Yeah, man. And it was clunky.
00:11:04:02 - 00:11:05:21
Joyann Boyce
Copyediting that must have been painful.
00:11:05:22 - 00:11:29:06
David Roberts
And then if you saw a typo you would cut it out with a scalpel. But anyway that's, that's gone off on a tangent. But yes, the shifts from that to desktop publishing was we do it all on the computer and print it out as a page. So I led that at the university and, and then that, that got me my job because I moved to Future that was really advanced for a publishing house.
00:11:29:07 - 00:11:51:03
David Roberts
They were already on desktop publishing. They were already on Apple computers back and this is what, 93, 92, 93. So quite early on. And so what throughout my career when I was doing print, the transition for me was I spotted early on that this is going to change the world. And I think I was surrounded by a lot of ostriches who were like burying their heads.
00:11:51:05 - 00:11:51:19
David Roberts
So I.
00:11:51:19 - 00:11:52:18
Joyann Boyce
Yep. And I spring to life.
00:11:52:20 - 00:12:14:19
David Roberts
And they were very scared of it because it was that they thought to their careers, this is going to, this makes no sense. You can't make any money. So they would stay away from it. So at Future, I, I was lucky. I could just put my hand up and go I'll, I'll, I'll take this on. And so I was given this crazy role at a fairly young age to run digital for, for global, you know, global corporation.
00:12:14:19 - 00:12:17:15
David Roberts
So that was, that was fun.
00:12:17:00 -00:12:18:00
Joyann Boyce
I can imagine.
00:12:18:00 - 00:12:44:15
David Roberts
Fun. But yeah, it took ages to figure out and I think Future's only just in the last five years figured it out and they are now a success story because they realised that the actually content doesn't operate in a vacuum. Online content is the way to attract attention and engage people and that you actually didn't move them down a funnel towards e-commerce.
00:12:44:17 - 00:13:07:09
David Roberts
And once they got comfortable with that, they suddenly realised, you know, the SEO process, you know, the and now if you have a look for gift ideas for men, you will come across like a TechRadar article or something like that. So, so they've managed the transition, but this is, you know, has taken 20 years. So yeah, brutal. Brutal.
00:13:07:11 - 00:13:24:14
Joyann Boyce
And in that time I can imagine. Well, first off, I'm assuming tell me if I'm wrong. Inclusive marketing as a concept wasn't even a thing. So what does it mean to you in relation to your, like, career journey?
00:13:24:16 - 00:14:13:08
David Roberts
That's such a good question. So I guess as, trying to think of the best way to answer this, I think certainly in my publishing journey, inclusivity generally was not a thing. And actually, you know, I operated in a very white male dominated, salesy, let's even call it environment. That was, was for me it was very uncomfortable. I'm just, you know, I didn't talk too much about my background. But I I'm obviously a white guy in my fifties, but I grew up, I didn't grow up in the UK, I grew up in Belgium and I grew up in an international environment.
00:14:13:08 - 00:14:26:22
David Roberts
So my, my mother's French, my father's British, and actually my wife is Dutch and Irish. And even though that certainly all white, it's, it's from a cultural perspective.
00:14:26:24 - 00:14:29:24
Joyann Boyce
You had some stuff around you, you had difference around you.
00:14:30:01 - 00:14:53:17
David Roberts
Exactly. Yeah. And I went to school in an international school, so I had friends that were all like from, yeah, I'm from quite well-off backgrounds. I think that's what they said. But they were from, there were diplomats from Egypt and from Mauritius, you know, And so culturally and, you know, my first girlfriend was Danish and it was is basically, I've always loved being surrounded by cultural differences that, that is definitely at my core.
00:14:53:17 - 00:15:19:00
David Roberts
So the reason I'm saying that is that when I was in this publishing, this British publishing environment, it was, it's quite uncomfortable because it is very single mindedly English, British, but it was also very male. And the, the environment for women there was, was atrocious, really, really atrocious the way that guys would talk about them. They witnessed some, some pretty horrific Yeah.
00:15:19:00 - 00:15:27:14
David Roberts
Just, just the classic stuff from the nineties of guys drinking at lunchtime and being oafs, I'm going to say rather than swearing too much.
00:15:27:16 - 00:15:41:18
Joyann Boyce
But you can swear, I’ve sworn so many times today. But I'm curious to know because I'm assuming those same men had to create campaigns for women and women. They knew women were their target audience.
00:15:41:20 - 00:16:04:04
David Roberts
Well, so this is, the area I was in was all games and computer games. And today's, you know, today, the smart marketer knows that games and computer games is definitely not male only. In fact, when you're thinking about games because of mobile gaming and indeed even just console gaming, women play as much, if not in some cases on mobile more than men.
00:16:04:06 - 00:16:14:13
David Roberts
But in those days it was very seen as niche. It was even seen as like schoolboys, teenagers, guys. And so it was focused, you know, that was that was the.
00:16:14:13 - 00:16:15:08
Joyann Boyce
Focus.
00:16:15:10 - 00:16:39:00
David Roberts
Incorrectly. And actually Sony and the PlayStation did start changing that, as did Nintendo once they were, you know, once the Wii came along and all that sort of stuff. But, but it was more just a sign of the times. I mean, I don't know if you remember the magazines in those days that were out there. Again, you're probably too young, but there was basically FHM and Loaded were the two big men's lifestyle magazines.
00:16:39:02 - 00:16:50:21
David Roberts
They were huge. They were selling 300,000 copies. And you know what was on the front cover of every single one? It was it was a woman without any clothes on. Pretty much with a piece of technology maybe hiding.
00:16:50:21 - 00:16:57:13
Joyann Boyce
Just somewhere, like, you know, like this is a focus of the magazine tech, but ignore everything else. Okay.
00:16:57:13 - 00:17:16:19
David Roberts
So that was the environment. That was you know, there was lots of good things about the nineties in the UK in terms of, certainly there was this, you know, Cool Britannia and Britpop and all this sort of stuff and Tony Blair coming and all this. But there was also, you know, inclusivity I don't think was really there, certainly not in the way that I saw it.
00:17:16:19 - 00:17:42:20
David Roberts
So I think that there was clear sexism for sure. And then in the campaigns I was involved because I was in most in a male dominated market. It was also very just single mindedly aimed at guys. So that was, that was definitely the case. But in terms of cultural differences or, you know, and any anything like that, it was just not on the radar.
00:17:43:00 - 00:18:15:02
David Roberts
And really not. I mean, from a financial, from a recruitment point of view, I would say that actually Future we did try just find, you know, the best writers and that didn't matter where they came from. Again, there was just, there was a bias just by the nature of the who the audience was. But we did you know, I definitely did bring in some very, very different people into the mix.
00:18:15:04 - 00:18:34:24
David Roberts
And it was like, you know, you didn't need a university degree, you didn't need to, especially in the games, you needed to love games, You needed to know how to communicate them, about them and, and connect with the audience. So that, that allowed us to bring some very different voices. But yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't a radio thing.
00:18:35:01 - 00:18:51:11
David Roberts
And then when I'm thinking about the games market, so the people that we, that bought the advertising in the magazines and that was all very, you know, was all very much white, white men who ran those campaigns.
00:18:51:13 - 00:19:17:10
Joyann Boyce
So that was the nineties. When would you say was the first kind of let’s narrow it down, because it always starts in the oppression Olympics. It does always start with women. Where would you say there was a shift? And I don't really mean in the like the team, but a shift in awareness about, okay, you were in a sector that was like, hey, we need to market to women, we need to change what we're putting out that wasn't so binary.
00:19:17:10 - 00:19:23:00
Joyann Boyce
Like, you know, oh, we're selling lingerie. So it's women. Like when would you say that shift kind of happened?
00:19:23:02 - 00:19:53:05
David Roberts
So, I mean, because I moved around, I saw, I saw it when I went back into publishing, it was I went into sports publishing. So I went suddenly into a very different sector. So it was cycling, triathlon, swimming, that sort of thing. And then that was very mixed, you know, that was very mixed. It was very again, this is probably more so in a sort of gender perspective more than anything else.
00:19:53:07 - 00:20:11:19
David Roberts
But it was, it was suddenly not, not a thing, You know, it was it was all the advertising, all the copy, all the teams. It was is a mix of people basically. And that, that, so I saw that very quickly. Having said that, when I then went to Dialect which was a, is a marketing agency focused on gaming and tech.
00:20:11:19 - 00: 20:24:00
David Roberts
So I went back into gaming and tech and I joined a team of entirely white guys, so, so. So it didn't change. And that was 2017. So, you know, and that yes.
00: 20:24:00 – 00:20:27:00
Joyann Boyce
Okay. But they were American though?
00:20:27:00 - 00:20:45:21
David Roberts
Well, a few of them were American, yes. And a few of them were Brits. But we so, so the reason I'm giving you that is when I joined there, having done all the other things, and it was a small company and the founders gave me carte blanche to basically run the company the way I wanted to run it.
00:20:45:21 - 00:21:05:23
David Roberts
The first thing I said is that I wanted to make this the best culture that we've ever worked in and I wanted it to be balanced, certainly from a gender, but my focus was gender, to be very frank and honest with you about because I was thinking this is the first battle that we need to have it, we need to solve.
00:21:06:00 - 00:21:31:11
David Roberts
And so within a few months, I brought some senior women into the team. And, you know, it took us a whilst a few years, but we got to I think within two or three years we got to a 50/50 gender split as the team. So we deliberately focused on recruiting women and also at all levels. And that yeah, When was it? 20, 2021.
00:21:31:11 - 00:21:39:00
David Roberts
I think we got to a point where the board was 50/50 as well. So at every level we had pretty much a 50/50 split and.
00:21:39:02 - 00:21:39:20
Joyann Boyce
Did that...
00:21:39:21 - 00:21:40:19
David Roberts
That was important.
00:21:40:21 - 00:22:03:10
Joyann Boyce
It being an agency and having kind of you coming into an agency that has a history. Did that change any dynamics with clients? Because I'm assuming that's you're bringing in and building up the British side, you're putting essentially your values into the environment you want to work with. But there's a history of how they were working with clients before.
00:22:03:12 - 00:22:08:08
Joyann Boyce
So was it any kind of conversation? How did that conversion happen?
00:22:08:10 - 00:22:52:15
David Roberts
Yeah, I mean, it was very positive because actually the big clients we were dealing with Logi, so Logitech and video Amazon at the time and all of them had, had very clear values and principles. And so actually I remember specifically with Logitech, with them visibly seeing the team change and it’s, in it’s makeup, I was only greeted with, you know, kind of not quite thank God, but more like okay, you're, you're now more aligned with us than you might have been, you know, so, so I think it was a very positive, but it wasn't like a formally done so it was more like behind the scenes to the CMO, etc..
00:22:52:15 - 00:23:15:24
David Roberts
It would be like, okay, this is this, this makes, this make sense. And, you know, being introduced to the senior, senior members that we were bringing in as well as the makeup of the team. The challenge has been, as you know, as you know, has been more cultural diversity for certainly for, for building an agency in the West country that's been more challenging.
00:23:16:01 - 00:23:20:19
David Roberts
Not impossible. We have, I say we, I'm not there anymore. Dialect has.
00:23:20:23 - 00:23:22:02
Joyann Boyce
Old habits die hard.
00:23:22:02 - 00:23:48:22
David Roberts
But they do have a good cultural split from an international perspective. So there's you know, there's, there's, there's certainly there's Asian, there's more international, let's say inputs, because the company deals with global brands and global campaigns. So they have, they have employees who come from China and the Philippines and they have employees from India and, you know, from I’m trying to think.
00:23:48:22 - 00:24:08:24
David Roberts
From the Czech Republic and from Spain and Argentina. So there's lots of accents. And, you know, that's, that's again, one of the things I want to do because it's what I loved when I was at school, all these accents and different languages and but, but, but that's kind of as far as we managed to get, you know.
00:24:09:01 - 00:24:31:21
Joyann Boyce
So with that global working with global brands and having the ages to which there's two elements to inclusive markets, I always talk about this is the good thing to do, but it's also a business as well because it makes so much sense to have a global brand that’s advertising games in those areas thinking of those markets, bring in people in to work on those campaigns.
00:24:31:23 - 00:24:49:24
Joyann Boyce
How did you balance, were you quite upfront with people in remote locations like these are the big brands we're working, right? We want your insights or was it more kind of bring the people along, They will bring their culture or they will empower and help us make ads for these various regions?
00:24:50:01 - 00:25:22:17
David Roberts
That's a really good question. Let me think about that. It's, I think it started as we will hire internationally because that would bring diversity of thinking to everything that we do, because if we have, have people from different backgrounds and different teams that will ultimately, actually bring a different viewpoint and not then forcing and being overtly going, therefore.
00:25:22:19 - 00:25:28:18
David Roberts
So I think it started more what's the opposite of overt? Anyway.
00:25:28:18 - 00:25:31:18
Joyann Boyce
Unintentional. But yeah. Practical.
00:25:31:20 - 00:25:55:21
David Roberts
Let's create. Practical. Yes. So we're bringing together the, the right people, the people from different backgrounds, and that should create diversity of thinking. That's probably within the approach. But having said that, probably as we moved along, we realised that actually had to become more intentional and actually put the right people on the right international campaign. So we were being a little bit more prescriptive going.
00:25:55:21 - 00:26:07:01
David Roberts
Actually, if we're dealing with Asia, we should we should really bring the people that have an understanding of that market or that, or the cultural nuances into those conversations.
00:26:07:03 - 00:26:17:08
Joyann Boyce
Because the nuances are so subtle in campaigns that you can't take a let's say, I don't know any games, I only know Sims. I think we spoke about this one week.
00:26:17:08 - 00:26:18:16
David Roberts
Sims. I love it.
00:26:18:18 - 00:26:38:23
Joyann Boyce
Sims games, but you can't take a campaign for Sims that would be American or British and chuck it in like Morocco or any other country and think it's going to land the same. There's tiny nuance. The game itself probably doesn't change, but the way you speak about it, the way you do the copy.
00:26:39:00 - 00:27:05:01
David Roberts
Yeah, absolutely. And, and even the way it's played sometimes. So even if the whole game is the same, the different ways people keep playing, especially when it's much more about collaborative gaming or multiplayer gaming across the Internet, the way that you do it in different countries has, it has different, has different ways playing. So, it's, it's really, really interesting.
00:27:05:03 - 00:27:29:19
Joyann Boyce
I love the gaming sector, it’s the one sector that I feel the communities that are pushing for change in advertising are ridiculously loud but also very creative. I think the reason Sims always comes back up is because I remember before Sims started, including a wider range of skin tones and a wider range of like hair types. The gamers started making it themselves.
00:27:29:21 - 00:27:47:20
Joyann Boyce
They're like, oh, we're just going to mod it, we're just going to make it. We don't care. We like the game, we don't like what the company's doing, but we're going to find our conversion and it just speaks to how much technology has adapted over the years. Because when I first played that game, you couldn't mod anything, you just had to play as is.
00:27:48:01 - 00:28:12:12
David Roberts
Yeah, and modding has changed everything, basically. And, and now with, you know, the next wave of technology and, you know, there's, there's the ability to even if, even if at its core AI or some models might have built in biases, you can change those things fairly easily and fairly quickly as long as you know that, that you need to change them.
00:28:12:12 - 00:28:14:22
David Roberts
You know, we know how. Yes, exactly.
00:28:14:24 - 00:28:25:20
Joyann Boyce
So that actually so my next question on the, the hottest topic, A.I., how do you see that and its relation to marketing?
00:28:25:22 - 00:28:57:00
David Roberts
Yeah, I mean, I don't think anybody's got the answers at the moment because they'd be, it's moving so fast and changing so quickly. But it's, it's interesting, isn't it, because AI is, is allowing us to do certain things way faster than before, but it's also therefore allowing us to be potentially way lazier than before. And I think that the people that are going to win are those that are not going to just be lazy about it.
00:28:57:00 - 00:29:25:03
David Roberts
They can actually use the time they gain to really work out the nuances and the aspects that we were talking about earlier because you can, you know, you can structure ideas and documents and you can even get AI to outline ideas for you or to timeline things or to break it down and even visualize stuff. And it really helps speed things along.
00:29:25:05 - 00:29:49:13
David Roberts
But it's very difficult and I think it will be for some time to like just literally give AI a couple of lines and then expect a fully finished, polished, perfect campaign or series of creatives. I think it's, it only gets you 70% of the way there and even then it might be only 30% of the way there. But you still have to do the rest of it.
00:29:49:13 - 00:30:09:16
David Roberts
So you can either be lazy and just do okay, I'm just going to do the 30% myself or use the 70% of time you saved to make sure that you're even cleverer about the nuances. And that's where it gets interesting, because AI can also allow you to adapt things so you might come up with the idea yourself or the creative yourself.
00:30:09:21 - 00:30:29:16
David Roberts
You might want to adapt it for 20 different countries and it can certainly do things a lot speedier in language terms, and it can even, you know, potentially you can replace the, the lip movement of a video and it, and it lip syncs with the language that you've just put in. So what you've done is you've translated it.
00:30:29:18 - 00:30:47:13
David Roberts
The script is now in German. It's coming out as German in your, in the voice of the actor, in the same voice or the accent, and then the lip sync changes as well. So jeepers, that's great. The key, though, is how do you make sure the nuances that we talked about are changed? You don't do a straight translation.
00:30:47:13 - 00:31:01:21
David Roberts
So if you've got a bit of time because of everything else has given you that time, I would work on that. How would you adapt the script so that it's more relevant to the German market or the Moroccan market?
00:31:01:23 - 00:31:33:04
Joyann Boyce
That is so interesting because and it's funny you use the example I was recently in the US and we were given the opportunity to tour the Disney Sound Studios. And interestingly, I made the assumption that when Disney created The Little Mermaid, they put it in a bunch of languages. They used A.I.. They said it was easier to find someone who can sing like Halle, the Little Mermaid, in the language than it was to try and get A.I. to adapt the nuance of how people speak.
00:31:33:06 - 00:31:51:05
Joyann Boyce
So word for word translation. And it's like you still, in the process, you still need the person. So I was very much thinking of the campaigns. You're talking like even if you were to implement AI into the process, you have a Dialect. You still need the person from that region with that local understanding.
00:31:51:06 - 00:32:18:01
David Roberts
You would do. Yes. Yeah. I mean that the way that the voice training, the voice models are coming that, that've been evolving, I guess since the Little Mermaid. It is getting closer and closer, certainly in the spoken word or maybe not so in the singing world at this point is certainly spoken word world. It's getting the nuances of even keeping the same voice.
00:32:18:01 - 00:32:40:20
David Roberts
But moving into Italian, it is becoming it's much more Italian in it's style. So it's becoming cleverer in that sense, even pausing at the right time, putting the right emphasis on the right syllable, you know, all of that stuff. It's not it's probably not 100% there, but it's, it's, it's really close. So I think, I think it will get better.
00:32:40:20 - 00:33:05:13
David Roberts
So I, but back to the point is you still need a local person, even if it's not to read it out in the long run. Maybe now, but in the long run I reckon that will be replaced. But it's actually an understanding what, what you want to focus on for that market because you can if you just, if you decide to, it's the same for every, every market because everybody responds in the same way.
00:33:05:13 - 00:33:24:16
David Roberts
It's forgetting that actually people buy a lot emotionally and by based on their motivations and different, different people from different backgrounds have different motivations and certainly different reasons for doing things. It's, I think it's, that's where we have to place our thinking and, and our time.
00:33:24:18 - 00:33:48:13
Joyann Boyce
I feel like this, and I'm excited by this because I hadn't thought about it in this way, that marketers are going to go back to the psychology roots. I guess there's so many marketers who don't realise how closely because I studied psychology undergrad and I was like, oh, this is the same, but you kind of learn the four PS or you learn the flywheel and it doesn't mention the word psychology, so people don't get it.
00:33:48:15 - 00:33:58:10
Joyann Boyce
But yeah, we're going back to psychological research. We're going to become market translators rather than just the content doers.
00:33:58:12 - 00:34:25:00
David Roberts
Absolutely. I was about say just between said okay, it's going to require more psychology because. That's where the nuances are understanding the difference. The difference. I said motivators for the target audience in different sectors rather, instead of just saying everybody who is 20 years old and who is female across the world has the same motivations, it's going to be more subtle.
00:34:25:02 - 00:34:49:07
David Roberts
And because of I it, it's going to allow you to be more subtle because it would have been too expensive to be subtle a campaign across the world five years ago. But it's in terms of change, creative, adapting, creative to be more subtle. You know, you're going to be to create 500 versions of something at a fraction of the cost, and therefore you can become more subtle.
00:34:49:07 - 00:34:58:15
David Roberts
But you've got to do it with the right, right reasoning and the right thought process. And that's what the psychology is going to come into it.
00:34:58:17 - 00:35:18:07
Joyann Boyce
That is really interesting. I really hadn't thought about entitlement. Yay. I love the nuances of marketing. Like there's a big campaigns and the putting content out. I think I fell out of love with social media for a while because of that. I came into the stage just pumping things out and I'm like, I'm not. I missed diving into analytics.
00:35:18:07 - 00:35:26:08
Joyann Boyce
I miss trying to figure out why did everyone bounce from this one page? Or they stopped scrolling halfway down like it's a continuous puzzle.
00:35:26:10 - 00:35:28:00
David Roberts
Yes.
00:35:28:02 - 00:35:35:00
Joyann Boyce
What is, sticking on to a question, I'd love to know, are you using AI tools? I think I can assume the answer is yes.
00:35:35:00 – 00:35:35:00
David Roberts
Yes.
00:35:35:00- 00:35:39:09
Joyann Boyce
Which is your current favourite? Because they for me, they're changing daily.
00:35:39:14 - 00:36:08:07
David Roberts
They do change daily. So I use, so I use a tool called Fireflies for, as my meeting assistant. So Fireflies is a godsend. It's, you know, there are lots of meeting assistants, assistants around. Now, Otter is, is one of the industry. Zoom has obviously one that you're using right now. And I use fireflies I found, because I tested a lot of them.
00:36:08:07 - 00:36:44:22
David Roberts
And to be honest, I tested them six months ago. So things probably have changed. But at the time I found that Fireflies had the best transcription and certainly the best summaries of the of the calls I would have because I was doing an awful lot of research calls for the university. I needed something that I could rely on and it has these amazing tools allow me to just look at keywords and, and press the keyword and it highlights all the points in the transcript dimensions of keywords, but it also tries to summarise the task, the action points from the meeting.
00:36:44:22 - 00:36:56:10
David Roberts
And so that was really cool. So Fireflies is super helpful from a personal productivity point of view. I use Chat GBT like everybody does middle class.
00:36:56:10 - 00:36:58:05
Joyann Boyce
Good, old classic. Paid or free?
00:36:58:05 - 00:37:24:05
David Roberts
I use the page because I use the unified version, so that's become unified, what, in the last two weeks, three weeks. So unified meaning for, I mean, I know you know, but for your listeners it's like it's the version that has daily and chat and the internet and data and analytics all in one. So you used to have to, and uploads of, of you can upload things.
00:37:24:05 - 00:37:41:19
David Roberts
So you used to have to upload your PDF using a plug in on a separate chat and then you would have to copy and paste that into a new chapter, then say, hey, do this thing with this upload. And then after that you wanted the picture to go with it. You would have to do a separate thing with Dall-E on Dall-E on a separate system.
00:37:41:19 - 00:38:01:09
David Roberts
All of that is unified. So since that unification, that's probably been my go to, but I've been playing around with a music I, so this is not work related. This is fun related. I was, I was, I've been helping a company called Voicify.ai.
00:38:01:09 - 00:38:12:21
David Roberts
And they, they basically do covers. So what you do is you paste a, copy and paste a YouTube URL from any song.
00:38:12:21 - 00:38:34:08
David Roberts
You want that into the system. It then strips the air, strips out the vocals, and leaves you with an instrumental, and then you run the vocals through a voice model of another artist. So let's say you take a Taylor Swift song and then you run the voice model through Bono from U2 say, and then it mixes it back together.
00:38:34:08 - 00:38:57:21
David Roberts
And then you have Bono singing a Taylor Swift song and it is so much fun. You can just spend so much time because I do my own music. I've also used it not just for songs. Well, I use it for my own music. Then I then because I've sung, I've got terrible voice, but I've sung on my own tracks and I've then replaced my voice with like Morrissey from The Smiths.
00:38:57:21 - 00:39:10:17
David Roberts
Or with Peter Gabriel or whatever. And so that's been great fun. So that's probably been one of my, one of my favourite tools. But yeah, really at the moment I'm just trying to keep track. It's.
00:39:10:17 - 00:39:11:05
Joyann Boyce
It is.
00:39:11:09 - 00:39:11:24
David Roberts
It's crazy.
00:39:12:01 - 00:39:21:04
Joyann Boyce
Moving. It is very, like one month in AI is like a year or even a decade in other industries it's.
00:39:21:07 - 00:39:42:00
David Roberts
It's mad. It's, it's absolutely mad. I, I've been trying to get some businesses, so one of the things that I'm doing locally here in the South West is teaming up with a few people to see whether we can bring some resources together for businesses and people who kind of not quite burying their heads, but they don't want to get involved.
00:39:42:00 - 00:40:01:07
David Roberts
They, because they're a little bit worried about it or they're not sure. They don't quite fully understand the ramifications. We want to bring some resources together so some guides to like what to use for what purposes and how to use it. So, you know, just build just to help these companies that might not be as tech savvy as others.
00:40:01:07 - 00:40:17:01
David Roberts
So it's kind of the other it's not Tech Spark, it's the other side of Tech Spark, which is everybody else that’s not in tech, you know, and helping those companies because it's moving so fast. But, but the thing is, a lot of those companies are not even, they've not even started.
00:40:17:03 - 00:40:41:14
Joyann Boyce
And that's the bit. I honestly think any marketers who haven't even just touched Chat GBT, disagree, like it, dislike it, are going to feel the repercussions especially next, in 2024. It's the time to mess around, it’s that now where everything seems chaotic is the time to make mistakes. See how you like it.. Because when it becomes, it's like social.
00:40:41:14 - 00:40:53:24
Joyann Boyce
All the companies that said they didn't want to be involved in social media, social media. I remember when I first started my agency, someone said, You can't sell anything on social media. You okay?
00:40:54:01 - 00:40:56:04
David Roberts
Have you been around? What’s happening?
00:40:56:06 - 00:41:18:13
Joyann Boyce
Do you know? Speaking of selling and campaigns, I thought, that was a horrible segue, but I tried. Let me know what campaign you like recently or have been seeing that's either inclusive, not so inclusive. Everyone's been doing a nice one, so let me know. What your one is.
00:41:18:13 - 00:41:52:02
David Roberts
It’s interesting. I mean, it's I don't know whether I classify this as inclusive, but it deals with it's a campaign that that that really struck home because it deals with so many male mental health issues. So I think, I think it's inclusive in a way because it's, it's obviously dealing with something that used to be taboo or is probably still seen as taboo in some in some communities, but it's done in an environment that is that is actually in some ways super inclusive, which is football, but also not inclusive.
00:41:52:02 - 00:42:20:06
David Roberts
So I'm a massive football fan. I have been since a tiny, tiny child has played football for as long as my knees allow me to as coach football, I can literally live and you know, I love football. I don't quite love it at the high, high level as much as I used to, because I think that it's been spoiled by money to a degree, but, but I love you know, I love the sort of local football, all aspects of it, and I love what it means to the communities.
00:42:20:08 - 00:42:27:11
David Roberts
And anyway, this campaign that I, that really struck home is the Norwich City Samaritans campaign. So I don't know if you know it, Joyann.
00:42:27:11 - 00:42:34:16
Joyann Boyce
Oh, no, I do not. And the Samaritans, I know Samaritans. I know nothing about football. So this is going to be an interesting one.
00:42:34:18 - 00:42:59:21
David Roberts
So, yeah, I mean, the, the campaign for those of you who haven't seen it, it's a two minute film that Norwich City created with their in-house. They didn't even do this via an agency. They did it in-house and it just, the camera stays exactly the same place for 2 minutes. And it just shows two guys, two friends at a football match and it goes obviously over time during a football match.
00:42:59:21 - 00:43:42:22
David Roberts
And one of them is quite introverted, doesn't get up much claps very quietly, and the other one's like going crazy every time there’s a goal and is constantly trying to chat to him and, you know, it's going to be a spoiler alert. But basically you get to the end of the video and the introverted chap turns up and lays a scarf over the seat of the really extroverted chap because basically the, you know, the inference is that the chat took his own life basically, and, and it's like the whole point is, you know, it's not the people that you actually think are struggling that are struggling and it's, it was an incredible campaign but which
00:43:42:22 - 00:44:01:20
David Roberts
which hit home with a lot of people and what it then did which worked which I loved is that they then sort of hit home very well within Norwich but they went way beyond. And Norwich is like a championship side, you know, they're not a massive side, but they managed to get pretty much every other side in the championship.
00:44:01:20 - 00:44:29:19
David Roberts
So that's 22 clubs I think it is, between 22 clubs to all do something on the same weekend. So, they basically on the scoreboard at every single game, you know, like half an hour before the game they ends, they put who's going to be, who's going to team sheet a piece on the scoreboard and instead on the scoreboard. They had, they had the, the starting 11 exactly the same way.
00:44:29:19 - 00:44:43:10
David Roberts
And then it said, number one, number two, that number three partner number four colleague, number five, brother, number six, sister. So all the people who should be, that you should be able to talk to, are important to you. You know, that's the team aspects.
00:44:43:10 - 00:44:46:03
Joyann Boyce
Okay. This is your football team.
00:44:46:03 - 00:45:10:17
David Roberts
Yeah, this is your team, you know. And they did, and they did that across the entire pretty much the entire championship. And so that, the impact it had was, was huge really. And, and they did it over the tannoy and the sponsors of the football club who normally have the shirt sponsorship on the sleeve on the front, on the back they all gave their spot over to the Samaritans.
00:45:10:19 - 00:45:45:23
David Roberts
So on that weekend they all had Samaritans logos. So it was just, it's just a really great, impactful campaign. And you know what the interesting thing is? It was run by the football club, by the football club's team. It wasn't, it wasn't big money and it wasn't outsourcing. And yeah, it was really, really impressive. And I, the other one that I loved, which, which has a slight connection, is the, it is the Uber.
00:45:46:00 - 00:45:53:09
David Roberts
How, who was it with. It's with the chap from Sex Education.
00:45:53:11 - 00:45:55:04
Joyann Boyce
The new Doctor Who, isn't he?
00:45:55:06 - 00:46:02:18
David Roberts
No, not that one but he's amazing. No the. Oh what's his name. I'm going have to find it here.
00:46:02:20 - 00:46:41:11
Joyann Boyce
While you're looking for that one. I love that. Because sometimes when a industry partners with a charity, it goes too far away from what the, the narrative is. And there's so many layers within that about what football is outside of the game itself. Like football is community, football is friendship. Football is all these things and tradition and the fact that not saying that in-house is a like an agency, but they were able to tap all of that in the partnership and it didn't feel like it was an ad for either part.
00:46:41:13 - 00:46:43:08
David Roberts
No, no exactly.
00:46:43:10 - 00:46:59:21
Joyann Boyce
Equally balanced. Equally, yeah. Because sometimes in those situations, you get to, especially I feel like charitable ads have changed over the past couple of years because before you get to the good, ask for money. You're about in that moment. You're like, oh, it's going to, they're going to put a QR code on, they're going to do something.
00:46:59:21 - 00:47:32:18
Joyann Boyce
But this definitely kept that football narrative, kept that reality is backed by data, because I did see someone did a data science analysis on football chat rooms and found that unfortunately, some men do go to football commentary moments before they do take their own life. And they were trying to analyse to find those comments and contact those individuals before, they said they have like a period of like a day or two.
00:47:32:20 - 00:47:33:17
David Roberts
Wow.
00:47:33:19 - 00:47:50:01
Joyann Boyce
Because football and the teams they support is their family. So they go in there to say goodbye. And all of that awareness, all of that knowledge in an ad that's really the centre storyline for me is the friendship and what that means.
00:47:50:01 - 00:47:51:10
David Roberts
Yeah, right.
00:47:51:12 - 00:48:11:17
Joyann Boyce
So many layers is, it’s beautiful when partnerships and this is the element of marketing sometimes that I find tricky. Marketing is still always marketing, but yeah, we do get to put across things that are deeper, But at the same time, on the flip side, you're like, so what was the analytics on that? Yeah. What were the KPIs on that?
00:48:11:19 - 00:48:36:05
David Roberts
Interestingly for us who do like numbers, I'm trying to find, I did read that it had some, some crazy reach like that. The video on YouTube had something like 40 or 50 million views. I mean it's absolutely crazy how it, how it took off and the, the club got taken completely by surprise.
00:48:36:07 - 00:48:58:19
David Roberts
But, yes, it's, it's, it's one of these one of these things there's a lot of, lots of things that happened from it that they did not expect. But I think because they, they planned it so well. I think I seem to remember reading something that they spent at least four months just talking with the Samaritans about the ideas and the concepts and way before they started planning anything.
00:48:58:19 - 00:49:29:20
David Roberts
And I think I think everything else, because the concept was so strong, everything else then fell into place, like, you know, the other sponsors giving up their space there, the other clubs getting involved, or it became, because it made so much sense and it was well thought through and it was this whole concept that the football club is you're part of your family and it needs to be, you know, you need to sort of pay attention to not just the quiet ones, but, you know, to, to, to everybody around you, I think was, was really, really important.
00:49:29:20 - 00:49:57:05
David Roberts
So, so yeah, I think it's had an amazing impact. And it's, it's I think you know guys, guys are really, don't talk enough. And so to be able to try and show it in this classic environment which football has a lot of negativity going, it's like classic environment where it’s foulmouthed and you know, it can be racist and it can be homophobic and it can be all these things that we've been trying to kick out.
00:49:57:07 - 00:50:17:08
David Roberts
But it's also for a lot of people, it's, it's, it's, it's a very important support and it can be a very important support. So, so yeah, I think the context of it was really important. So yeah, great, great campaign, The reason I was going to mention the other one was not to compare it, it was more that it was the same.
00:50:17:10 - 00:50:38:21
David Roberts
There was not, not similarity, but it was also two guys talking and, and this is me. It was talking a lot about balancing the genders. And I've got when I see the campaigns I like, I would add more about guys mental health. But it was the Robert De Niro and Asa Butterfield. So Asa Butterfield is the guy who plays in Sex Education.
00:50:38:21 - 00:51:04:14
David Roberts
He plays the, the Sex Therapist character. And it's the Uber Eats and it's basically the two of them. So one of them is Robert De Niro. Obviously, in his eighties, Issa is in his twenties. And that basically a friendship strikes up between these two people on set. And, but it's all about them driving, doing things together, all powered obviously by either or Uber Eats.
00:51:04:14 - 00:51:32:11
David Roberts
And so it's, it's all about experiencing things and that's you know, bonding over food by bonding, bonding over experiences, which I really like. Because even though that's clearly marketing for Uber, it was more the, the generational total difference. And yet these two people being brought together by, by experiences, which I really, really liked, I thought that was, it's a great, if you haven't seen it, it's a great video.
00:51:32:11 - 00:52:00:07
David Roberts
It's well worth watching now. But that's much more like, you know, that was produced by Mother. That's like a proper like, big, big budget so it can pass. This is why I prefer the Norwich one if I was to, if I had to choose and obviously Norwich deals with, with, with suicide, which is much more on the, on the scale. But this is still an interesting thing about guys needing to talk more and build relationships and bonds.
00:52:00:09 - 00:52:28:16
Joyann Boyce
Yeah, I definitely feel that there's elements of inclusive marketing that aren't the straight up, you know, gender split and all that. The elements are just things and content that is, lack of better phrase, bucking the trend. Of, of whatever the industry normally does and not just the creative trend. It's not saying, hey, if you normally do an ad in a football field, do it in an airplane, like not go in beyond that.
00:52:28:16 - 00:52:38:12
Joyann Boyce
But just looking at what are the taboos that we've been avoiding to talk about and how can we incorporate that and show that within, show our target audience in a different light?
00:52:38:14 - 00:53:06:24
David Roberts
Yes, exactly right. And it's bringing things together. And you say you don't normally see friendship developing between an 80 year old and a 20 year old. You know, you don’t see people talking about suicide at football. And, you know, those are the important ,really good, I think, I think it opens up ways for us to talk about not just those things, but a whole bunch of other difficult conversations that people, they're not shiny and spangly and lovely.
00:53:07:05 - 00:53:29:23
David Roberts
You know, the real conversations are real topics that we should be addressing, which I think for me, a lot of the inclusive marketing, that's what it's about. It's including, yes, different people, different voices, but it's also different subjects and different topics, things that we're not used to bringing to the attention of consumers through, through marketing.
00:53:30:00 - 00:53:44:06
Joyann Boyce
To the forefront. I love it. That brings me onto my final question then. What do you think the future of inclusive marketing is going to be will look like? Will feel like? What are your thoughts?
00:53:44:08 - 00:54:29:10
David Roberts
Wow, this is really interesting. I mean, it's I'm, I'm an optimist, someone who's a quite positive optimist. But I do I do think we are, we have well entered and in the middle of a sort of period of where there what’s the word I’m looking for, you know, in terms of, there’s polarisation, really. So there's, there's what we, we would like to see, which is, you know, all these topics we talked about, nothing's taboo that actually we, we think about our target audience as what they are, which is a multicultural mixture of people.
00:54:29:10 - 00:54:58:06
David Roberts
And we therefore think about our the nuances also. So how we talk there’s that whole world, which I'd like to think is where the majority spans. But I do also think that there's this crazy sort of side which is thinking of all of this is woke and, and I, you know, I don't have a problem with the word woke because I see the word work as actually having empathy and understand better.
00:54:58:08 - 00:55:28:21
David Roberts
But I actually see there’s a whole group quite a vocal and large group, certainly in the States possibly, and certainly in Western Europe, which is therefore fighting against that. And, you know, being very, very vocal. So I think we're going through, we're going to be going through a period of a battle to a degree, and is seeing where the brands and where the money goes is important because, because fundamentally money does talk.
00:55:28:21 - 00:56:00:07
David Roberts
And if like, was it this week, another bunch of brands left the platform that used to be called Twitter. And, you know, finally again, this is too much. We got to we got to stop backing this. You know, that that will hopefully move towards putting that sort of money into platforms and content. And that actually goes along the lines of more, more the topics we talked about that needed to be covered, the way things are portrayed, you know, all of that.
00:56:00:07 - 00:56:21:20
David Roberts
And then if it does happen that way, I think that the future is, is bright in that sense that we, we then it's then about testing how, how do we bring all of these things together in a way that is the right way. But also still, as you said, it still, still hits the KPIs, it delivers the results, right?
00:56:21:22 - 00:56:49:15
David Roberts
But I do fear there's going to be an ongoing battle for a few years with, with, with this view that anything inclusive which is obviously the right thing to do, is seen as bizarrely seen as work. And therefore, you know, in a weird way, being restrictive or, or anti free speech or, you know, all these just crazy, crazy, bonkers ideas.
00:56:49:15 - 00:57:22:10
David Roberts
But the are getting an awful lot of time and, and causing a lot of, a lot of rifts. So yeah I think the power is going to be with the brands and it's going to be up to them to decide how they want to play it. And for me, it should be, you know, the consumers should be the winners, and the consumers are a, you know, our massive what's the word, a sort of mesh of all sorts of backgrounds and people and, and that's, that's basically who you want to communicate with.
00:57:22:10 - 00:57:30:19
David Roberts
So you should, you should get with the program and communicate in a way that engages all of these different people.
00:57:30:21 - 00:58:01:13
Joyann Boyce
It's interesting because I think going back to what we mentioned earlier about with AI people are going to go back to psychology and I feel I don't have the proof, but I do feel some brands are choosing inclusive marketing because they know they'll get a certain response, an audience that is negative, but that negative going back to marketing being marketing leads to clicks, leads to other things writing.
00:58:01:15 - 00:58:35:23
Joyann Boyce
And if we're going back to marketing based on evoking emotion, we might accidentally all become inclusive in a weird way, like, like, I think. And it's making me think I need, I keep saying we're going to do a case study on this, but it's making me think of Bud Light and some of the things that happened in all that backlash or however it was, just people were buying the product to destroy the product, which in business case is actually kind of, because they're still spending money.
00:58:36:04 - 00:58:37:07
David Roberts
Yeah.
00:58:37:09 - 00:58:57:16
Joyann Boyce
But it's, it's a weird and very capitalist society element of it but I like the balance of, you know, optimism but some elements of realism, we might stumble into it. I am neither-nor, I'm just like society will societise as it does.
00:58:57:18 - 00:58:59:00
David Roberts
As it does.
00:58:59:02 - 00:59:05:12
Joyann Boyce
There's not a word, but. Thank you so much for joining me, David. I really, really appreciate having you on the podcast.
00:59:05:14 - 00:59:08:18
David Roberts
It's been a real pleasure. Always good to see you and.
00:59:08:20 - 00:59:10:08
Joyann Boyce
Let the people know where they can find you.
00:59:10:14 - 00:59:38:02
David Roberts
Oh, so interestingly, where am I? I'm not on I'm not on X anymore. So that, that's, that's off. The best place for me is LinkedIn these days. Probably. So, Dave Roberts I am on Insta. David Maher Roberts I think it is, but yes, that's pretty much, that's pretty much it these days. I’ve, I’ve kind of closed down my Twitter accounts and I've bene playing with threads.
00:59:38:04 - 00:59:47:07
David Roberts
I'm not yet sure how that's panning out, but I think I've got the same. It's the same as my Insta. So threads or Insta is the best place.
00:59:47:09 - 01:00:06:20
Joyann Boyce
Okeydokey, we’ll pop all those links in the show notes. Again, thank you so much for joining me and thank you for tuning in to the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. I'm your host Joyann Boyce. You can find me on all social networks, at Joyann Boyce. And tune in next week for another episode where we dive into all things inclusive marketing.
