Ep 8: The Importance of Visual Representation in Marketing with Jess Hellens
Shownotes
In this episode, Joyann Boyce discusses inclusive marketing with guest, Jess Hellens.
Joyann and Jess discuss a range of topics including: the importance of representation, fast fashion, ethics in marketing, celebrity brands, and a deep dive on Bodyform’s Womb Stories ad.
Jess is the founder of Wild Coworking, a hybrid coworking community for women and non-binary individuals who work from home or for themselves. She is also the founder of J D H Communications, a creative PR and marketing agency.
You can watch the podcast here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur5BLS5CgHQ
Useful Links:
Bodyform Womb Stories: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZoFqIxlbk0&ab_channel=BodyformUK
Gillette First Shave, the Story of Samson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR-JkiNQ_Ro&ab_channel=CBS17
https://www.congobrands.com/brands/prime-hydration
https://www.techstylefashiongroup.com/savage-x-fenty
https://impactful.ninja/how-ethical-is-savage-x-fenty/
https://www.fabletics.com/yitty-by-lizzo
You can find Jess Hellens here:
Twiter: https://twitter.com/jesshellens
Wild Coworking: https://www.wildcoworking.com/
Wild Coworking LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/wild-coworking/
J D H Communications: https://www.jdhcommunications.uk/
Transcription
Joyann Boyce 0:02
Welcome to the Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. I am your host, Joyann Boyce. On this podcast, we're going to discuss all things inclusive marketing, from persona creation, campaigns and even some of the mishaps we see in the media. Tune in and let me know your thoughts on how we can make inclusive marketing the industry standard.
Joyann Boyce 0:23
Thank you for tuning in to the Marketing Made Inclusive Podcast. Today I'm going to be speaking with Jess Hellens about so many things, so many things. It's a very interesting conversation. I went into this conversation thinking we're going to focus on PR and how that can be made inclusive, but we were able to discuss the narratives of fast fashion, we were able to discuss how some campaigns need to do more and what I really enjoyed about this conversation is that Jess challenged me on some of my biases and some of my process and data thinking in regards to the creation of campaigns. It's going to be an interesting conversation. And I think you're really going to enjoy it. I'm so excited for this episode.
Joyann Boyce 1:07
Oh, my goodness. Hi, Jess.
Jess Hellens 1:09
Hi, Joy.
Joyann Boyce 1:10
For those who don't know, this is gonna be a fun one, because I already know Jess. And we've been talking about inclusive marketing for, I want to say donkey's years. I don't know how many years are in a donkey’s year.
Jess Hellens 1:21
Since like, maybe like 2017. But we've probably properly got into it like 2018. Because that's when we started to get to know each other really well.
Joyann Boyce 1:33
Yeah.
Jess Hellens 1:34
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 1:35
And ask each other awkward and weird conversations. But before all of that.
Jess Hellens 1:39
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 1:40
Jess. Jess Hellens? Who are you?
Jess Hellens 1:43
Oh, that's a big question, isn't it?
Joyann Boyce 1:45
In relation to marketing.
Jess Hellens 1:46
In relation to marketing, I'm the founder, director, whatever you want to call me of JDH communications. And it started life as me being a freelancer working on projects for artists and theatre companies. Then it kind of went into like, agency stuff, like I built a team. And I still have that team. But I'm more of a marketing consultant now. Because I'm so long in the tooth of it. I've been doing it for like 15 years in loads of different industries. So now I really enjoy doing the strategy side of things and essentially saying to people don't do it like this, do it like this, or you're doing a really good job with this, let's build on that. So yeah, that's the kind of marketing side of things. And my other business is Wild Coworking and that conceptual community for self-employed women and non-binary people. And yeah, it's just, I just have a lovely time, basically.
Joyann Boyce 2:54
Doing a lot. And I was looking back and I'm like, I know, it's been more than 10 years that you've been doing, marketing, but when you said 15, I was like, oh, yeah, we have to add the five years I've known you.
Jess Hellens 3:07
Yeah. And I'm old. So.
Joyann Boyce 3:10
Jess, you're not old.
Jess Hellens 3:12
I'm 35, so.
Joyann Boyce 3:14
I'm sure that people listening right now are gonna be like that, that is barely, barely anything. Barely a spring chicken.
Jess Hellens 3:21
Yeah, I'm a baby, really. But yeah, I have been doing it for a long time. So I've seen a lot of trends and changes, especially with language and representation, and how the conversation has, like evolved.
Joyann Boyce 3:39
So I want to dive in. But before we dive in, what, whatever you can to share, what is your perspective on the world. And to give a little context, some of our listeners won't be watching us on YouTube, but they'll be listening to us. So my perspective of the world is that I have travelled various countries, I'm a Black woman, I'm dyslexic, and queer. So the way I interpretate marketing, the way I approach it, is based on all of those perspectives, so feel free to share whatever you like.
Jess Hellens 4:08
I think that as a white woman who's worked in marketing for a long time, my perspective has developed in marketing, because when I first started, it was very, very basic, especially with PR, and we can get into what PR is in a minute. But it was quite, it feels very old fashioned now and I didn't, I wasn't really aware of my place in business, or how I can affect marketing campaigns. And how that is developed is, that I'm very aware of, especially like, behind the scenes, how I operate in marketing is that, and doing audits for disabled theatre companies, for example. Understanding that it's my like to listen and then communicate to the right audiences. It's not, I'm basically an interpreter of what companies want to communicate and turn it into marketing and PR content. My opinion is not necessarily needed in those conversations, but listening and trying to understand and thinking about how different audiences will perceive that communication or how they need to consume that marketing is such, it is a science, as you know, but I think it does come down to a simple kind of equation of someone talking like my client talking, understanding the industry as much as I possibly can. And listening. Listening is so underrated and people forget to do that.
Jess Hellens 6:05
And, yeah, so, I mean, I can't really sum up what my view of the world is, but in context of me being a marketing person, in a world where representation obviously, really, really matters and I want to communicate that to other marketing people, but also people that are working in house and need help developing a marketing campaign, who are aware of them needing to be inclusive and intersectional but not understanding what that actually means. And so then they don't do anything at all because they think, well, I don't want to get it wrong. So I'll just stick to what I know. And I guess I try to empower clients as well, to be open to making mistakes and learning. Because it's how you recover from those, then it, what it does is give them the freedom to develop marketing campaigns and know that wherever they start can be adapted. I think that's it doesn't have to be perfect straight away and listening to their audiences and understanding how they can be more accessible and the content, they're putting out all of that, I essentially enable, try to enable that conversation to be had between audiences, between internal teams and reassuring them that it's okay if you don't know, you're not, you're not, nobody starts a career knowing how to be the most accessible and the most intersectional. Because what does that even mean? It changes every day. So I think the I think that like, I'm rambling now, but I think the key is to just give it a go. And to listen.
Joyann Boyce 7:56
There's so many things you mentioned, but I want to pick up on something that happened in our very early conversations when we first met.
Jess Hellens 8:03
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 8:04
I was very heavily focused and mainly because of the people in the clients I was getting on, representing and making sure that Black women are out there. And you would always ask me questions like, oh, but how do you make an accessible? What is the disabled perspective on this? And I would take a moment of pause because I realised, one I've never been asked the question. Two, I wasn't being an advocate in state situations, but for various reasons, because clients would come to me with the Black-centric focus on wanting to reach only Black audiences. And sitting as an intersection talking about Black women. They feel like oh, but okay, that would confuse them. And I remember, I came to you with quite a few questions, because I was always nervous to even mention disability because I thought that would be I would have to be an expert in it.
Jess Hellens 8:56
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 8:57
I was having the problem that I advise clients not to have, it was so funny. But how did you get into speaking and kind of representing disabled community and marketing content, even having clients where you had to push back and make things accessible? How did you step into that world at first?
Jess Hellens 9:14
I think that because I'd worked, I guess my reputation in terms of being a marketing person in the creative industries got me that exposure as in, people knew that I had worked in theatre. I was looking for clients in theatre, and the arts, let's just say the arts. And then, when a brief came out, I was keen to work with loads different communities, but I think I just went for it. And thought this is, I think, a lot of people would look at brief from a disabled theatre company, that's very broad by the way, but anyway, I will stick with that, would look at it like you would have been like I don't know, I haven't, I don't know. But I think that the danger with being, that sometimes the danger of being intersectional means that you kind of think that there's a, there's a particular way of marketing, right. And actually, it's just not being a nob head. And listening and understanding the barriers, I guess, that certain organisations are facing. But also, everybody is after the same thing, exposure, like I didn't treat that company any differently. Apart from listening to what they are currently coming up against and what kind of rooms they wanted to get into. So like they wanted national coverage, just like any other theatre company, it didn't make any difference in terms of the way that I worked with the media.
Jess Hellens 11:05
The marketing, like the, the mechanisms of marketing, were all the same. It was just understanding what their objectives were, same as I would work with any other client. And they taught me a lot about accessibility and understanding, you know, even coming down to explaining how a meeting was going to happen was really important. Because bringing people into room from lots of different areas of the team, it can be quite overwhelming for a lot of people, you know, if they're neurodivergent, or even not, like, if you don't get marketing, going into a meeting about marketing can feel really overwhelming. So I think that being open to learning lessons meant that I was able to work with lots of different disabled theatre companies. Let's do that. Because I was like, sure teach me. But also, this is how we do marketing. It was that simple, of course, like.
Joyann Boyce 12:11
It is one of those ones where, and you've explained it so well, the mentality initially looking at these things approach and representation is, oh no, you have to do it different or special. But when we go back to the principles of marketing, the key is and you mentioned this listening, listening and interpreting that for audiences. One of the things that I've got quoted on before and I said it, and I had a moment of pause after I said it, because I was just like, hold on that sounds wrong, but it shouldn't be. I said at an event disabled people want to have sex, drink alcohol and have chocolates, but we don't see them in the campaigns. And the whole room was just like. Yes, disabled people want to have sex, eat chocolate and drink alcohol. But why—
Jess Hellens 12:23
But they do. It's not that they want to, they do do that. Like, I don't see, that's, that's what I think I'm saying is that sometimes the danger of intersectional marketing is that there's still a very, there's a huge separation. And it's like, you're just representing society that's made up of a wonderful array of lots of different people from different backgrounds, and different ways of moving through the world. The world is extremely ablest and that's the barrier. Disabled people are only disabled by the way that the world is set up. If we were not ableist, then they wouldn't be disabled.
Joyann Boyce 13:44
Causing that and marketing reinforces all of that narrative as well.
Jess Hellens 13:49
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 13:49
In terms of the world now. And we're gonna dive into whatever campaigns that we somewhat disagree on that anywho in terms of the world now and how you see campaigns out there. What, if any, progress have you seen in some campaigns for any representation?
Jess Hellens 14:08
Yeah, I think a lot of like, fast fashion brands have been representing, you know, fat people, disabled people. Finally, you know and Black and Brown people, of course, like that, they know that they've got to do a better job. And so I think they are working harder. I haven't worked with fast fashion brands. So I don't know how the working happens, but I'm hoping that they speak to and listen to those marginalised groups rather than just picking models off the shelf and being like, tick, that's a disabled model. Tick, that's a fat model. Like, are you as representing them in your ad campaigns, or are you actually designing clothes for fat people? Are you actually designing clothes for disabled people? Amputees? Have you thought about that? Like you might represent them in your lingerie adverts. But how is an amputee, someone who is an amputee going to put one of your bras on?
Joyann Boyce 15:27
Mmhmm. You've just hit a nail on the head as well, where inclusive marketing doesn't mean include everyone if your product doesn't fit, like sometimes people forget that. And it's one of my bugbears where they're like, oh yeah, we're gonna market to everyone and I'm like, but your website's not accessible, your products not accessible, then leave the people out. I rather you intentionally leave people out and say we're going to improve the product or service people, then what I find is happening now, either they get chucked in, like you're saying, I'm wondering if you're thinking of one particular brand that does really well on inclusion. But I don't know if their bras are accessible. But it's gonna hurt my heart to check. I love me, I love me some Savage. I love me some Savage x Fenty. I'm sorry. Rihanna did so well. I know she has areas to improve on. But I don't think any, I don't think any of her bras have any physical accessibility that I know of,
Jess Hellens 16:26
Like physically accessible, like, and it is hard. That's what, that's why people haven't done this in the past. It's not the path of least resistance. With Savage Fenty like it was one of the first campaigns that a large brand and celebrity who was endorsing it, and I don't know if she owns it, actually, but representing more women than any other lingerie brand potentially did before. But I also know smaller businesses that actually do think about their clothes and how people are able to put them on. So yeah, it's a it's one of those, isn't it? That it's like they've got so much money that they could actually develop products that are physically accessible. You know, that's the thing, like, do it, just do it.
Joyann Boyce 17:25
So I've I worked with various companies and I see it mostly in the game sector, where the marketing team is completely disconnected from development team, and they just get given content to market. And I feel like maybe some this is a wider thing that we're touching on here. But at what point does that cycle need to happen? Because if the marketing team is pushing representation, but the product or the service or the thing is not accessible? Yeah, where ideally, I know that we would go back in all these companies and start to do things right. But thinking where we are now, how does that conversation happen? Because I've never worked in a big organisation where I've had to push back, I've always been external. So we kind of come with ideas and the solutions. What was your thoughts on that?
Jess Hellens 18:15
I think that every company is different. Do you think that the marketing department in pretty much every company is always left to get on with stuff and again, be handed a campaign, but then you've got agencies that are brought in again, but they're not part of the development. And that's probably a major issue. But I think that there's also a way of avoiding that, which is by the education of every single staff member of the company, of how to be more accessible in your language, in the way that you email people, in the way that you set up meetings, in the way that you develop products. And that's not just the product being accessible. It's the way that you talk about it, the way that you, you bring teams together, if you have got a team of people that understand that lots of people within their teamwork differently, then that's going to come through into the product too. But unfortunately, I don't think the fashion industry is anywhere near that point. And I don't think it wants to be.
Joyann Boyce 19:31
So then fast fashion, no, because in itself is not affordable or profitable for them to think about that. So I will kind of, not necessarily give fast fashion a pass. But until that business model changes, I don't see them becoming fully inclusive. Fun story. There was a fast fashion brand I noticed recently, who were advertising how large their leggings stretched, and they had straight-sized models put their arms inside the legging and do kind of like a duck movement to show how far the waist span. I swear to you the things that I see, because of my research it is hilarious. And everyone in the comments was like, you couldn't just hired a plus size model. They just was like, yeah, it doesn't exist. So we're just gonna have our straight-size models. Not do that, just.
Jess Hellens 20:19
And it makes a mockery of their sizing. If you're getting a straight-size model to be like, look how big it is, what does that say to fat people? Like, oh, I could fit two straight-size people in my one leg of my tights. What? Just represent me, I want to see what it looks like on someone that is like me.
Joyann Boyce 20:42
The things that come out. But yes, I give fast fashion a pass because in the model itself and the business model itself, there's no real opportunity for them to develop something. The turnaround of product to market is too fast. But there are brands that are putting a lot more thought in that beginning process. And I haven't done a deep dive but I'm curious to know what Lizzo's Yitty thought process was. And it begs this question, so is there, going back to Rihanna and now Lizzo, both of them come from marginalised backgrounds somewhat. Rihanna does have pretty privileged she is thin so but she is a woman of colour. Lizzo is a woman of colour, but she's also plus-size. So they started brands to fulfil their needs. What are your thoughts on that? Because a lot of my clients, when I talk to them, they're like, oh, you have to be the thing in order to create it for that audience.
Jess Hellens 21:41
No, you don't. Because that's again where you bring in marginalised groups and listen to them and ask them questions about what they want from a product. What I would say about Yitty is that it's owned by Fabletics, so I am unsure of the ethics behind, Lizzo doesn't own the brand.
Joyann Boyce 22:05
Your blowing, Lizzo doesn't own, Lizzo reps Yitty like her life.
Jess Hellens 22:11
Yeah, well, she's the, she is the the woman of the brand, but she doesn't own it. You know that, also that drink? Was it called prime drink? That is, what's that, oh God, I sound so old now. The guy, the YouTuber that sang with Anne Marie. And he always wears a bandana. Anyway, he's made, he is, has made, in inverted commas, Prime drink, right. And it's like, rifling through schools. And they, like kids are paying 10 pounds for a sip of this drink. And it's being listed on eBay for 10 grand. Everyone thinks it's this guy's drink, but it's owned by two guys from America. Like my obsession is looking at, especially in the UK, I can't really look at American companies that well, is looking at who actually owns the company, because that has such a huge, because then you realise that are they actually creating this product to be inclusive? Or have they found someone that represents inclusivity? Which is also great, but where does, where does the objective come from? Like, they're doing it to make money, then, you know, and make money.
Joyann Boyce 23:28
But, so, I'm now wondering, does that even matter?
Jess Hellens 23:33
Does what matter?
Joyann Boyce 23:34
If they are creating a product that is inclusive and is servicing individuals who haven't been serviced before.
Jess Hellens 23:45
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 23:46
And then essentially painting an ambassador of that audience on there?
Jess Hellens 23:52
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 23:52
Does, does it need to be like, does it matter?
Jess Hellens 23:56
No, no, no, no, it doesn't matter who owns it. But, but I think that has an effect on how the product is developed. Okay, that takes us back to, okay, well, where does the product get developed? And where does the marketing go? So if someone starts a company because they want to make sustainable trainers, because they care about it and they're the owner of the company, every decision that's going to be made probably is going to be, right well that, you're not doing that ethically and that's why I started this company so make sure you do that ethically. If someone has started a company to make money so if it's two blokes that own Fenty for example. They are not necessarily have going to have set up the company to be inclusive. I'm not sure about, I, like I said, I don't know if Rihanna does actually own Fenty or not, I do know that Yetty is a, is owned by Fabletics.
Joyann Boyce 24:56
I don't know that, now. I'm questioning, well I personally don't think inclusion and ethics are connected.
Jess Hellens 25:05
Okay.
Joyann Boyce 25:06
I think you can be inclusive and unethical in terms of selling products, not the world, then we just clarified how in terms of selling products and creating products, because we're in a capitalist society, and we're still trying to sell things, you can create an inclusive brand and not be ethical.
Jess Hellens 25:23
So what does ethical mean then?
Joyann Boyce 25:26
So going back to the fast fashion situation, like paying people, involving people in the process, transparency, all of that cannot happen, but they still create an inclusive product, somehow, somehow.
Jess Hellens 25:42
Yeah, I think also, and by the way, I'm using the word fat, because I'm reclaiming that word fat. And lots of people use curvy or, you know, plus size, fine. But I think that it's really hard to shop as I know that it's hard to shop as fat, tall women in with fast fashion. So I, because it's, it's not inclusive, like not many fashion brands are inclusive at all, really, they don't go up to like size plus 24. No fast fashion goes plus 24 that I know of.
Joyann Boyce 26:23
But they could, I feel like they could they could, they could if they knew the money was there. So this brings back another aspect of the data not being there to justify the capitalist choices, to chase the money, if we remove the including people aspect, if a report came out tomorrow, and it said, since COVID everyone is now a size 16 plus and all these plus size, women are spending 80 billion a year on clothing. We know every fast fashion brands gonna shift. But the data is never there to justify that move. So they could, but they're not.
Jess Hellens 27:02
And we're, I think then the reason why this conversation that we're having is quite complex, and we're not getting to, like a oh, yeah, this is why it is, is because it is transitioning. I do think that the it's quite complex at the moment, it's, we've gone from fast fashion is for straight-size people to hang on a minute no one, like it was very small percentage of the population is straight-size. So we, we can make more money by being more inclusive. So then that's where my question about being ethical comes from? Like, did they, they wouldn't have done that unless they've realised like you said that they could make some more money. But anyway, I think that's why it's quite hard to like determine where we are is because there is such a change happening at the moment. I think that with climate change. A lot of people are thinking about where they're shopping, how much they're buying, where they're buying from. So that's like another level of, okay, well, how do we move forward? And keep everyone included, including, by the way, cost. And affordability. It's, it's very complex, there's lots of different levels to this. And we're, having clothes is a basic human right. So that's what it comes down to. Anyway, yeah, there's so much to discuss, I don't think that we're going to
Joyann Boyce 28:31
solve the world's problems in one podcast.
Jess Hellens 28:36
Love to. Yeah. When I did that talk at Engine Shed the other day, afterwards, there was a queue of boys and blokes, to me their boys cause I'm 35 and they're 19. A queue of blokes afterwards waiting to speak to me. And every single one of those questions that they had was about how they can be a better ally and how they can bring more women to their courses, how they can work better with women in the workplace. And I was like, I've never experienced this before. I've never ever encountered someone that isn't from a marginalised group asking how they can be better as a white man. And so I think like generationally, hopefully they've realised that they need to do better. And so will.
Joyann Boyce 29:28
You gave me a fab sample segue there. There was a study that came out in America that said, it will take about 71 years to close the race-hiring gap within marketing agencies.
Joyann Boyce 29:44
Right.
Joyann Boyce 29:45
And a lot of the times, I am brought into agencies to be that voice and to be the voice of Black people or women or so forth.
And I hear the owners of these agencies, the white men say that yeah, we can't say this. We can't do that. From those conversations you had with those young men, what, what advice would you give agency owners who happen to be most likely middle-aged white men, into, into. Yeah, what advice would you give them to help make the movement?
Jess Hellens 30:20
I think that and I have had this conversation with those men whose sit as CEOs and want to do better, in inverted commas. And I don't doubt that a lot of them do want to do better, but what they, like every single time, and I'm talking like blokes that are my age and older, every single time I've questioned their marketing activity, or the fact that every event they've put on has, like I'm talking about agencies that put on like, business events with panels that are full of men. Every time I've had that conversation, they say, yeah, we need to do better. And so I say, right, okay, well, how do you want to do better, they've got no idea. But they know they've, they've done something wrong, not wrong, but they're not doing as well as they could be in terms of like representation within their teams or their events. And so I'm like, okay, well, let's have a conversation. Every single time they don't follow up. Because they kind of feel like they've done the thing of like, admitting that they could do better, but they don't then go into right, okay, well, let's start thinking about what our outreach looks like, that, who are we wanting to bring people into our team? Because we want to properly represent and understand a marginalised group? Or is it that we are worried we look to white and male, those are two very different things. And I think that you can tell when an agency fully wants to create a team, that means that they can, whereas when I did that talk at Engine Shed the other day and they really respect what they have to say, as opposed to well, we've got a Black guy working on this urban projects.
Joyann Boyce 32:11
Oh, gosh, whenever it's not on the brief, it just makes me itch.
Jess Hellens 32:15
Yeah. It's awful. The amount of times that I've heard people say that and they're being genuine and I'm like, what, what? I don't, I haven't heard it for a while to be fair. But there's been so many times that people have said that to me in the past.
Joyann Boyce 32:32
What is, and feel free to pick whatever level, the most shocking thing you've heard from agency owners, or people wanting to, they know they need to do better.
Jess Hellens 32:45
Oh, God, I've heard some really, really shocking things. And I've been personally treated horrifically by men at work. The most shocking thing that I've heard someone say, I was working, actually, there is one thing, I was working with a theatre company in Bristol. And at the time Bristol Old Vic were doing a really, really great programme of events and they've carried on actually, that was a real shift from them. Doing very, they had very white, nondisabled, all men casts in all of their own productions, right for a long time, genuinely, then there was a shift. And they started bringing in lots of theatre producers from lots of different areas across the UK from different backgrounds, lots of Black and Brown and disabled actors and actresses. And there was a real shift happening and it was really great to see. I was working with a smaller theatre company at the time where that was that shift was happening with Bristol Old Vic. And I said to them, because they're arts council funded nnd so arts council want to understand how they develop their audience and who they're representing in their shows, and, you know, all the usual stuff that's been there for years and years and years.
Jess Hellens 34:12
And the guy that was running the theatre company said, I don't want to just like, oh god I can't even bring myself to say, I don't want to just bring in a load of Black people into our productions, just because like Bristol Old Vic have done, just just to tick a box. And I get that, but then he followed it up with well, we've managed to, I can't even say it, we've managed to get arts council funding for our next production by bringing in this guy that is that has come to the UK as a refugee, so that will get us the funding. And I was like, do you know what? I'm not working with you anymore. Because I was doing a day of their marketing strategy kind of talking to them about like, what do you, what are your objectives like, oh, we want to reach as many people as we can. Well, you're not going to and with that attitude, keep your own bubble. And now, I don't want anything to do with you. So you're also going to exclude yourself from a lot of groups. It's just, I think that if a lot of people that support certain brands and organisations that they think are doing better, we're actually sat in a boardroom, with the people making decisions, they realise that there's a lot of change that still needs to happen. Systemic change needs, there's, every time I step out of my, like, Wild bubble, for example, with women and non-binary people in business, and I step out of that into another business arena, you know, into another networking event or something. And I encounter people that don't share my views on business. Shit, there's so much work to be done still. And we talked about it a lot, don't we?
Joyann Boyce 36:10
Yeah. Because I know I've shared to you, I will come back from one of my speaking events. And I'll be like, you'll never guess what I got told on this trip. Mine are, they're interesting scenarios, because I'm in a position where I can't necessarily walk away cause I literally just come off stage talking to people. And it's always this moment where I have to stand there and be like, am I going to address this thing you just said? Or am I going to just carry on at this whole networking event? The one that comes to mind is I did my inclusive marketing talk, talking about, you know, how agencies should implement things in their process or pushback with clients and you know, have different versions of stock photos, typical things, the standard things I've been saying for the past five years. Someone comes up to me at the end, and they were like, yeah, we tried it with one client. And then the client said that Black people don't buy luxury things. So yeah, what well, how do we, why would we push back? How would you push off, we would risk losing the client. And this is a question they asked me in front of a whole bunch of people. I'm just there like, there was so many layers of ridiculousness, ridiculousness on it. But that was the one thing oh, we don't want to risk losing the client. So why would we push back on something racist? They said, that's all I heard. I'm like, okay.
Jess Hellens 37:29
Why do you want to work with a racist client? Like, straight away that you're just enabling that? I? I'm sorry, that, that's.
Joyann Boyce 37:40
But yeah, they're kind of aspects was, we tried it once and it was just too risky. It was just too much, the client was just like, no. And there's parts of me that understand that, there's part, but there's parts of me that are like, there's ways to put things in processes, there's ways to implement things that don't make it. I feel like everyone that's approaching inclusive marketing feels that needs to be this hard, abrupt stop of everything they're doing. And it's like, no, you could just have better stuff like this. Or you could just, you know, explain your, your, your alt text better. There's little things you can do in your day-to-day. I do wonder whenever I speak to those CEOs and directors of agencies, they feel that because they've had a conversation with a woman that, that is all the work they need to do.
Jess Hellens 38:31
Exactly. It's like, That's exactly my experience is that they've kind of gone oh, yeah, entertain that conversation. I'm not gonna email back now, don't need to. The work of like, women, especially Black and well women of colour that take that on their shoulders again, like we are the ones that want to change. The marginalised groups want change quite often to go into marketing for that reason, like you and I have created businesses because we want to see change. And again, we're doing the work, they need to do the work. I need to do the work. Like as a white woman, there's a lot of work that I need to do. But I think that certain men that I've worked with would say that, like you said, but wouldn't actually know where to start to do the work because it's quite scary. You know, like, it can be scary to be, like to admit that they're sexist or racist, or, you know, there's a lot of stuff that they've got to unlearn that I'm aware of. There's so much that I have to unlearn as a white woman. That's like, it's hard work, but it's not, it's not meant to be easy, though. Do you know what I mean, but because of that, no one does it.
Joyann Boyce 39:52
And they try to make it seem that it doesn't impact the work and the content that they're producing but it does.
Jess Hellens 40:01
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 40:02
And that's the disconnect that this, oh, no, it's fine. Or it's like, no, every campaign you've put out has been male-centric. Because that's the only perspective. You've thought of this impacting the content creating is limited in in so many ways. But speaking on content.
Jess Hellens 40:20
Yes. We'll watch the advert now.
Joyann Boyce 40:27
Yes that's what I was going to say. So we're going to, for those listening, when my mouse starts working, were going to watch the body form wound stories, advert, and then share our thoughts on it. Let me get this up.
Jess Hellens 40:45
We don't agree.
Joyann Boyce 40:48
Only a little tiny—
Joyann Boyce 40:50
Yeah only a little bit.
Joyann Boyce 40:51
But yeah, we're gonna watch the Body Form 'Wombs Stories', which is a campaign that came out, I believe, in 2018. And yeah, we've spoken about it before on a podcast. But if you want to watch it yourself, and you're listening to it, the link for it will be in the show notes.
Joyann Boyce 41:05
This is so good.
Jess Hellens 41:08
It is and it makes me emotional, like every time I see it, and I remember seeing it for the first time. And I was like, oh my God, there's a potential for people that don't understand what it's like to have a period, that's gonna understand what it's like to have a period. But even and, I mean, I'll let you get into it. But that was not that long ago and already, I like I said to you the other day, there's, they could update that.
Joyann Boyce 41:36
Now they could, but I just feel like it represents such a wide I don't know how, because it's three minutes. Because we also got to put some realistic aspects on this, there needs to be enough storyline, and intersectionality within the storylines, but it also needs to fit into three minutes, and it can't be too many clips, to complicate the viewer, so I'm gonna see. I'm already, I've already got my defence off on it. But they have, they shown first off, I always clock, the main ones. So there was definitely representation of different ages, we had representation of sexualities, we had a queer couple and a straight couple, literally, the straight couple having sex, in the age one, we had a woman going through mesopores and a young woman getting her period for the first time, different skin tones as well. it wasn't a woman, it ranged from obviously though, though, white women, but there was a dark-skinned Black guy. So there was a spectrum of skin tones as well. Two things I didn't spot. And I know you would mention this, I didn't spot representation of any physical disability, and I didn't spot representation of any trans men. However, I don't know where they could have put it.
Jess Hellens 42:48
I think that's an excuse Joy. I think that's an issue that a lot of men on boards make a lot. One, why does it have to just be one three-minute ad?
Joyann Boyce 43:05
I'm not saying that, there could be multiple ads, but I'm saying within that ad in itself, they try to hit as many as they could in that ad in itself. Yes, there could be a series. I'm not, I'm not disputing that if when it comes to series, you can do everything. But were in that ad in itself. Was there room for another storyline?
Jess Hellens 43:27
I don't think that's the question that we should be asking. Because, yeah, I can see lots of different places where trans men could be represented. And so that straight couple that were having sex, why couldn't the woman be disabled physically, visibly disabled? It couldn't be, why couldn't that man be a trans man?
Joyann Boyce 43:50
Okay, okay.
Jess Hellens 43:52
There's there's lots of different places also, I think that three minutes fine, but make three three-minute ads. Aldi for Christmas have about 1000 different ads. I do think that lots of period brands are starting to represent trans men. Anybody with a womb. That, it's that simple. Anybody with a womb, if you're advertising period products, that's what I mean. Like, I think all I'm saying is that now they could update it. And it could be so powerful, as it was when it first came out, I think, you know, as women who identify as women, female, we were like, finally, a real-life period. advert that shows blood for God's sake rather than that blue liquid.
Joyann Boyce 44:51
The bar is so low and I think that's where we're having it from our past episodes and the research we've done. I've seen where the bar was before I was even born, the bar wasn't even on Earth, it wasn't another planet, it was so low. So I think having that ad came out and was based on YouTube, came out in 2020. From where the bar was, there were like ads in newspapers of women with their legs open, tampon hanging out and with a fish on the end of it. I know progress happens in different stages. But I feel like that was such a good timestamp. And a lot of other brands are now adopting that actually showing pain and showing red blood and not blue blood. If yes, Bodyform could do another one. That could be, and the fact it's called 'Womb Stories'. I don't know if there were other stories. But in the ad itself, I hear you on the representation of physical amputee, visibly, visibly disabled. But yeah, I'm what I feel like maybe it's because of my bias, I feel that a trans man story of the period needs his own solo campaign before it can get integrated into something like this.
Jess Hellens 46:10
Why, why?
Joyann Boyce 46:12
Because the market, the market is not there, like so one of the campaigns I use often in my talks is the Gillette ad. That came out in 2018. And it's an ad of a trans man being taught to shave by his father. And they're both Black. And I use that ad and I look back at it. And I'm just like, at the time, I was in love with this. I was like this is a representation. But now I look at it and I'm just like, that was a needed step to shift the conversation to just have trans men in campaigns. In terms of the public's perception, I'm not talking about us as marketers, and what we can create. I'm talking about how we can shift the narrative of the people consuming this content.
Jess Hellens 46:49
But trans men consume the content and the products. So why not include them in the adverts begin with why separate it?
Joyann Boyce 46:59
Initially, I think it could be part of a series I think, given the spotlight for one the individuals who consume the content to feel seen and heard. And then to feel, lack of a better word, normalised because that ad Body Form's ad essentially is normalising what has been the outskirts or the opposite to period campaigns up until now. Because up until that and recent ads and campaigns around periods, it's been wearing white dresses, frolicking, that has been a normal.
Jess Hellens 47:31
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 47:31
And as far as, not that I'm not under the best demographic for it, as far as cis straight men know what periods are. That has been there awareness. And then everybody else who's had a period has felt to, been made to feel they are not normal, because what is these? So I think that needs, that, in terms of shifting the narrative, because other aspects, if it is just chucked into a story like that, it can come across as tokenistic.
Jess Hellens 47:59
Why?
Joyann Boyce 48:00
Because there's not given it's time to shift, personal opinion. I feel like you have to have spotlight, saturation, than normalisation when it comes to representation of communities that have been marginalised in media. So spotlight, and I feel like spotlight has been happening for too long, spotlight is like when they want to do a campaign of a Black woman, they use Oprah. Everyone uses Oprah. And it's just like her. Then saturation would be okay, let's use Oprah, Naomi, let's use Serena, let's use all these people. And a normalisation is that you don't even need to use a famous person, you can just use a random Black woman on the street in the campaign and it was so be fine. I feel like that is the journey.
Jess Hellens 48:41
But why do you think the journey is needed?
Joyann Boyce 48:44
Why do I, my faith and humanity is very little.
Jess Hellens 48:51
Maybe we're not giving them enough credit. Because what that is assuming is that society isn't made up of trans men, isn't made up of disabled people, isn't made up of lots of different minority groups or oppressed groups.
Joyann Boyce 49:08
I'm not saying, I don't feel that is the case I feel on that journey of spotlight, saturation and normalisation, it's giving, for me those communities and opportunities to sit and feel like they're being seen. Because if you look at the example, I just had, Oprah's impact, even though it was mainly just her for a very long time. It was fast. Like a lot of people like oh my gosh, I could be Oprah. And now we're at the stage where black women are saying, I could be anything, it might be because I'm looking at it because that is the experience I've lived and I'm limited by that. It might be that the generations coming up don't need that they're already in the normalisation phase and everyone else is catching up.
Jess Hellens 49:54
Yeah, I would agree with that. That's my point, I think, is that I think if we can continue to use those mechanisms and formulas to market that it's not going to change. And I think disrupting that formula is important to represent people that have periods, including trans men. There's what who is saying. No, you can't represent everyone who has a period in a period ad, lots of ads for period products or trans men in them now. So that's what I'm saying is that, when that came out, I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And now, and at the time I, I was the same, I had the kind of same opinion as you, I suppose I didn't even really think about it, because that's, because I am not a trans man. And I would, hadn't opened my mind to that. But now that I've done my kind of education side of things, and we've moved on, even the last few years, like, the last few years with the pandemic, there's so much change that's happened in lots of different areas. But now, that's, I mean, yeah, I wouldn't change that advert, because I don't think that's the point that I'm making. The point is, it's that they've done that now. And they can do an update. So they've spotlighted and I can't remember what the next stage is that you said, saturation. So then now like otherwise, they're just gonna stay in the same place that they were in 2020.
Joyann Boyce 41:25
I think that's what I'm trying to, for me, is when a brand skips the other two stages and goes to normalisation in my gut, if they didn't start like that, it feels weird. I don't know why. I don't know if it's because we I've seen so many brands mess up when they try to make it Oh, yeah, we just do this, whatever the representation is, is this like, whereas maybe it's a separation as well, because I guess the historic brands are the ones that make me nervous when they skip and they go into normalising people. They have not represented for millennia.
Jess Hellens 52:03
Right.
Joyann Boyce 52:04
I'm just like, you haven't done the work to, to appreciate the people that you're now trying to normalise. It feels weird. And I'm speaking as a consumer, definitely more than a marketer. Because going back to Fenty, Fenty's trying to stay in that normalisation phase and not even trying to do I can't think of one Fenty campaign that had a spotlight, it was always saturation and normalisation.
Jess Hellens 52:29
Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting point. I think that as a marketing person, as marketing people our bias, we're always going to try our hardest to have empathy. But ultimately what it comes down to, that's why it's important to listen to different groups. Period products are so specific. It's not like a brand. It's very easy to represent who has periods.
Joyann Boyce 52:56
And that's interesting. So I have a, I'm going to be doing a podcast episode soon, with someone who's developing a period cup.
Jess Hellens 53:09
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 53:10
And you say that, but the conversations even around the language and the wording, there isn't a consensus of how people who have periods want to be referred to.
Joyann Boyce 53:20
Right. And that what's that based on?
Joyann Boyce 53:23
Their research. So they, they're building the product. So they've had to speak to, a while and they've made effort to make sure they speak to people who have periods in the broadest sense of the term. And it's interesting, because I feel like, obviously, we live in an age of the internet languages evolving so quickly. That I don't even feel like we're, we're there yet. It's something that's happened from beginning of time, because we've always been around creating, producing having periods. I feel like the language isn't there yet.
Jess Hellens 53:56
I think that's the trap that we fall into is that we are getting to a place where language, one day is going to be inclusive. The point is, is that it's ever-evolving. And so being open to learning how it evolves, is key. I think that if we're going, if we're, if that's what we're doing is that we're aiming to get to a time in history where everyone is represented really, really well. And we've nailed the language. That's not right. That's the trap we've fallen into before. That's how brands don't evolve.
Jess Hellens 54:30
That's how brands get stuck in the past. I think that's my point that I'm making about the video really, is that great. They did really, really great, but now don't stop at that. Keep going. And I think that's where you stay stagnant. A company stays stagnant by not understanding that language changes pretty much every day, and that lots of different people have an opinion of how or they would want someone to talk to them through an ad campaign, for example, be, if you want to simplify it, which is hard to do, but in marketing, we kind of have to sometimes, if you're looking, if you're asking one particular group of people, so if you wanted to do like a, an umbrella term of disabled people, then within that there's lots of different complexities and, you know, to wheelchair users would say different ways of sort of say, different things in terms of how they want to be communicated to about wheelchairs, for example, and everyone that has periods will have a different way of how they want to consume an advert. And the language, this is this is, I think, what, like advertising agencies were must struggle with or find challenging with is that they could be working on a campaign for six months and then by the end of that six months, it could be tone deaf. And I think during 2020, through the kind of Black Lives Matter, awakening is a really good example of that. So lots of brands, their campaigns landed during that period, and were perceived as tone-deaf.
Jess Hellens 56:22
And I think that what we've got to consider is that they were working on the campaign 6, 12 months before that, and it was scheduled to land. And everything had progressed a million miles now, as it should have done. And I think, that's when you have to have people on teams of marketing teams, advertising teams that kind of go hang on a minute, is this the right thing that's going out at the right time? Or can we adapt the language? Can we adapt representation within our imagery, like you said, there's simple things that can be done like stock images using the right ones for it to land, because I think, again, consumers don't understand quite a lot of the time that advert, advertising and copywriting is done months and months, maybe even years ahead of it landing, especially for fashion or products. It's been in the making for years. And so that's where the marketing teams need to be agile, they need to be open to learning lessons, and applying those lessons and everything that they do. And that's ultimately where a team or a company needs to educate and bring in the right people to educate.
Joyann Boyce 57:37
So this is a heavily biased question on my end.
Jess Hellens 57:42
Love it.
Joyann Boyce 57:44
Where do you see technology playing a part in that because—
Jess Hellens 57:48
Well, if only we all had something called Inclued. It's true, though, what you're developing could be well, is going to be that change that we need in the marketing industry, because that allows you to be to access data, but also potentially content eventually, because that means that you're giving, you're being given the understanding that your content isn't diverse enough with one of the better kinds of time because that's not just the only thing that Inclued does, but, I'm your spokesperson.
Joyann Boyce 58:34
I'm like, as soon as you said, I was like, people need to keep up to date. And I'm like, yep, yep. So technology. But honestly, obviously, were building a platform to help people identify those things, in the timeframe that we are at, because one of the things that has happened, I've gone in and I've trained clients, they've created inclusive language documents, but something happens in the world documents out a date.
Jess Hellens 58:58
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 58:58
And it's keeping up to date with that and keeping on top of it, and no one person and I always advocate for this. On a slight tangent. I hear you and I hear other people within the industry talking about diverse teams. But I want a but and because yes, the teams need to be diverse, but and we cannot wait till they are.
Jess Hellens 59:21
Agreed. That's where my education kind of point comes in. That their teams need to educate themselves. Until we have diverse teams. Listen to, sorry, I interrupted you carry on.
Joyann Boyce 59:36
No, that was it. It was, we cannot wait until they are and they may, some teams may never get there. Depending on country, location, various. No one team is going to represent 100% of their target audience.
Jess Hellens 59:51
Yeah.
Joyann Boyce 59:52
And that's what I see. And I advocate for technology stepping in in an ethical way, ironically, because I did denounce ethics in marketing a couple of minutes ago. In an ethical way to not necessarily create and put together these campaigns, but to advise the teams on what the audience and the narrative and the perception of a campaign is going to be once it lands. But outside of our, thank you for the plug, but have you used any of the AI is coming up now where it's like copywriting, AIs and image-creating AI?
Jess Hellens 1:00:30
No, I haven't. And you always introduce me, slash terrify me with new tech that I'm like, oh my God, we may as well just plug into people's brains, which we essentially have. And then I'm like, I can't deal with it. And I go around this circle of like, no, I'm not doing it anymore to actually to, like systemic change can happen with the help of technology, which, of course, is your viewpoint as well. And yeah, I haven't used it, but not from not wanting to, I think, again, the reason I haven't is because I'm not educated, and haven't thought of doing that. And that's one of the main issues, if you know what I mean, like, I will start working on marketing campaigns a huge amount anymore. But that's not an excuse. I think, my example is kind of shows you how easily it can happen where I want to and I'm very aware of how marketing can progress. But I still need to educate myself, and I'm open to being wrong in my marketing strategies, for sure. You know, like, a lot of what I do is based on how I've done it before, that's worked. We all do, we all do. Not every single thing that we're working on is brand new, because we've learned how things work. And if it works, well, then we'll keep doing it until it doesn't. Being open to being wrong is is that's where the change comes in, in my opinion.
Joyann Boyce 1:02:13
So could I say, in the same way we are asking individuals to open up their minds, I can ask you to be more techy?
Jess Hellens 1:02:23
You always asked me to be more techy, Joy. And for that I'm grateful. I am genuinely like, I think that's, I think our example of how our kind of professional relationship works is from how you highlighted it before, in terms of when I was like, hang on a minute, have you thought about non-disabled people in your what you're creating? And you were like, okay, thanks. And then, same with tech, tech, you're like, just come on now. This is how you can use tech while you're not doing it like this. And I'm like, alright. It's about finding those people that keep you accountable. And that's why obviously, having the most diverse team that you can helps. But also diversity doesn't mean that the works gonna be good. Just because you've got a disabled person on your team doesn't mean that disabled people are going to be represented on campaigns. Black woman on your team doesn't mean that all of a sudden, you're going to be creating campaigns that represent Black women. So it's not just about representation.
Joyann Boyce 1:03:46
Okay, I chuckle because a lot of, a lot of organisations and teams think that yeah, once we get that it's all good. It's like your systems and processes. And the people who say yes or no to the campaign are still the same people. Therefore your campaigns are still going to be crap. I'm gonna say crap, but I really mean offensive. But yeah. Yeah, okay. This has been an amazing conversation. We have gone all around the world twice over, but I want to know about your inspiration in what you're doing now.
Jess Hellens 1:04:17
What is inspiring me is women around the world, especially women in Iran. And, and I want to talk about that as much as I possibly can because they need as much time and space to be heard around the world. And for me, that represents how important it is that women need to be seen and heard. And in my lane, I'm able to help women be seen and heard through my community of women and non-binary people in business through Wild.
Joyann Boyce 1:04:49
Where can people find out about you and Wild?
Jess Hellens 1:04:54
People can find out about Wild on our website, WildCoworking.com. and also social media. But yeah, the website is a good place to start.
Joyann Boyce 1:05:06
Well, we'll add all the links to the show notes. I am going to wrap up and this has been an amazing conversation with Jess Hellens, founder of Wild Coworking and JDH communications. We have talked everything around the world and I would love to hear your thoughts so please hashtag Marketing Made Inclusive. You can find me everywhere on the internet at Joyann Boyce and look forward to speaking with you again on a Marketing Made Inclusive podcast. Thank you.
